I know I should feel sorry for someone who's been beaten up, but...

[MayaAngelsFromTheRealmsOfCool]

...when that someone is one of the thugs who killed Stephen Lawrence, and he's been beaten up in prison, I kind of don't. At all. And if he were sent back to that prison now I'd think: Oh well, tough, innit?

I know that logically it's unethical, but...y'know.
It's like when Gaddafi was killed (obviously his crime was on a far larger scale). Someone who's brutalised other people...I find it hard to work up any sympathy.

Anyone else feel this way?

Re the Gaddafi point watch this and sleep tight a the fact that people like this will probably become the new leaders of Libya. They're no better than Gaddafi.

Actually, entropy, what frequently works to change our minds is that we alter our behaviour first and then our thoughts follow. Like the white racist criminals I read about who had to collaborate with black criminals in prison. As they spent more time working alongside them (behaviour change) they observed a number of admirable characteristics among the blacks and realised that their racism was utter nonsense (thought change).

I dont think prison is at all effective as a deterrent. Please see the re-offence rates for conformation of this.

A1980, you've got the wrong end of the stick, I'm afraid! I was saying that my response was similar to the Gaddafi situation.

entropy, you said earlier that you had a failure of empathy. And now you've said something else not dissimilar. Hmm...are you a sociopath?

Yes, post-prison recidivism rates are extremely high.

I dont think prison is at all effective as a deterrent. Please see the re-offence rates for conformation of this

But they don't tell you how many people are too afraid to commit crime in the first place due to the deterrent do they?

You can't measure deterrent in that way....only re-offenders.

No some people just lack empathy. They do not care for the wellbeing of others.

Others have control issues. And will exert this over and above everything else. Gang mentality is slightly more complicated.

Evil is demonstrated through the acts they allow themselves to do. The man I spoke about knew exactly what he was doing and enjoyed it, he eventually told me so during a phone conversation. It may be perverse and in my mind evil, but he was a functioning human with no rhyme or reason for his behaviour. This man had full control over his actions, and whilst I understand what you are trying to say, I have met enough people to think that some just do wrong. Maybe their brains are functioning differently, but for the purposes of culpability they need to be punished for acts that they committed, that they knew were wrong at the time of the offence.

I have read some criminals records and can see where the pattern of criminal behaviour stems from, sometimes there just isn't a reason, and that is always worse.

No rejoicing here.

But if it did happen, well it couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke could it?

maya changing your opinion is easy. Education is probably as close to the previously described magic pill as we are going to get for a while.

I think in the case you describe the people were intolerant of difference in general and this presented a racism. When shown that actually there was no difference worth a damn between them and person type X they then accept person type X. I would be interested to know if they actually came out more tolerant or simply expressed their intolerance as racism towards a different segment of society.

I have heard people do the 'oh all people of race X are lying bastards' but your mate Z is of race X? 'oh well they are obviously great, wont hear a word against them, but all the rest of race X are lying bastards'

On a separate note OMFG I HAVE to go to bed.

Thanks for keeping this civilized I have really appreciated hearing all the contrary opinions on this!

Last post was in response to other posts - specifically not Entropys about her lack of empathy!

FWIW I don't think you lack empathy Entropy, your arguments have been full of the thoughts and rights and mindsets of criminals, if you were truly lacking in empathy you wouldn't give a shit

deer I think they know that society considers them to be wrong...thats easy you look it up in the law of the land. But I doubt they personally consider it to be wrong.

I would class anyone who thought it was okay to harm someone else as ill....

BED

"I dont think prison is at all effective as a deterrent. Please see the re-offence rates for conformation of this."

I was talking more about people who haven't yet offended, like me. And who are unlikely to do so because as well as having a working moral compass, don't much fancy being confined to a 6ft by 6ft space for 20 years.

I disagree that changing your opinion is easy. I think it's very hard, mostly because we invest so much of our ego in it so we try extremely hard not to lose face.

As for those men I described, what went on in their minds we can only conjecture about. But without the behavioural change there would not have been the change of thought at that time, would there?

It's been nice chatting with you, too. Nighty-tight.

gah cant sleep.

maya ahh see thats odd to me. I have always found it easy to take on board new evidence and simply throw out my previously cherished beliefs as defunct. I think this is a personality asset in a world that is constantly turning up new information and it is certainly an asset to a scientist...though it is not, of course, an asset I take any personal credit for.

bup but I'd be willing to bet a small pombear that your moral compass is doing the vast majority of the work....and that if anything ever pushed you so far off equilibrium that you would consider going against the dictates of your compass, then the thought of being locked up would hardly have the power to stay your hand....

urgh...now I dont know if its worth trying to sleep before feeding o'clock...dilemmas...

oh I just spotted that the word dilemma must be derived from the concept of two lemmas....

stop wittering to yourself woman.

If you argue that you can't change your personality, then surely it follows that you cannot rehabilitate a criminal?

I think it is easier to stomach to believe that all rapists and murderers are mentally ill

at entropy! Hey, I was up at that time as well! If I'd known you were around I'd have joined you on MN.

Hope you have a better night tonight.