I know I should feel sorry for someone who's been beaten up, but...

[MayaAngelsFromTheRealmsOfCool]

...when that someone is one of the thugs who killed Stephen Lawrence, and he's been beaten up in prison, I kind of don't. At all. And if he were sent back to that prison now I'd think: Oh well, tough, innit?

I know that logically it's unethical, but...y'know.
It's like when Gaddafi was killed (obviously his crime was on a far larger scale). Someone who's brutalised other people...I find it hard to work up any sympathy.

Anyone else feel this way?

I made it very clear I was not referring to the minority of people who suffer from mental illness.

Finding it great larks to beat up a black man is not a mental illness.

but how can you claim that thinking it's okay to kill another sentient being is not a sign of mental illness?

Personalities ? seriously?!

It wasnt about their personalities, it was because they were violent and racist.

So if a man rapes women because his personality dictates that he hates women is that ok too?

A rapist wouldnt then be responsible for his raping of women if his personality was the cause?

Fucking hell.

People are responsible for their actions. end of.

There was nothing 'wrong' with these boys/men other than they are racist and violent.

Please dont make excuses for them.

taking away their freedom (locking them up to keep society safe) IS their punishment. You can't distingush the two.

my brain doesnt work that way - probably as a combination of my genetics and upbringing.

their brains do work that way -probably as a combination of their genetics and upbringing.

where does punishment fit into this?

"but how can you claim that thinking it's okay to kill another sentient being is not a sign of mental illness?"

Are soldiers mentally ill?

That justice and punishment are outdated concepts

Would you say that if it were your son murdered

sorry I think you really can distinguish the two.

I think the motive for an action is important as well as the action itself. Also if the purpose of incarceration is to rehabilitate/treat then it would look a bit different than if the purpose is to punish (and beatings are looked on favourably by the assembled on this thread).

serenity sorry, my last post was directed at entropy

I think significant numbers of soldiers are mentally ill by the time they return home.....

I think a lot of brainwashing is necessary to get soldiers to do what they must. It is done on orders and in situations which encourage a sense of self-defence. I think a soldier that was keen to get out and kill unarmed civilians would be considered ill by his/her colleagues.

If we didn't have punishment and justice, then we would have vigilantism

Racism is not a mental illness or 'inner demons'. It is a usually strongly held belief

amber well I certainly hope I would think the same...would be a bit hypocritical otherwise.

I have lost a relative to a preventable accident and I felt rage, yes, but the only worthwhile thing to do going forward is to try and stop it from happening again in the most efficient way possible.

I dont hate the person involved for being stupid or selfish, and I dont think they should be punished for it. Just re-educated and put in a position where they cant do that again.

S'alright bejezus, i realised :)

People are animals entropy

Civilised animals

If by justice you mean that the state finds out the truth of the matter and acts in a way that prevents reoccurrance then I have no problem with justice.

The idea that it involves some redress for the victims is outdated and I think even in this case the family have already said that there is no positive here - that nothing done to the perpetrators can bring the victim back or do anything for the family.

Its as simple as two wrongs dont make a right.

You can't re-educate someone witha personality disorder. There is no cure for psychopaths- there is nothing you can do that will stop that person killing again if they wish to. So you take away their freedom. you protect society. They in turn, have a basic human right removed. Thats their punishment. They can't help it but that doesn't mean they dont' get punished. thats how society works.

You are being insensitive now

An accident compared to a hate driven murder

Come on

Ha! If people were truly animals there would be no moral dimension at all. No responsibility for actions...nothing.

That some of us ARE capable of empathy sets us above that. But I dont think we should punish those who dont for reasons of either nature or nurture. Just keep them out of circulation until they either figure it out or die.

in a way, I do see what you're saying. I just don't think, as society is NOW, its relevent. thats not to say in 100 years people won't look back at how barbaric the justice system was- I'm sure they will, as we look back it it 100 years ago and think the same.

But relatively little is know about mental illness or indeed, how our brains work. 50 years ago we imprisoned people with epilepsy. In 50 years time imprisoning psychopaths may appear as ridiculous- maybe they'll be a nice pill they can take. But as things stand, at the moment, we do not know enough about why people do these things to do anything except what we do right now.

That we currently cant 'cure' psychopaths is a sad fact. And yes they undergo punishment for a failing of society but I think it would be good in general to keep that to a minimum.

There are so many studies showing that education and therapy can reduce rates of re-offending in many types of crime far far more effectively than locking up but our victorian sense of justice and punishment is holding us back.

My point about being animals- is although we are civilised and therefore there is a moral dimension- you do not have to be mentally ill to kill someone

I think I would find it easier to forgive someone for doing something so utterly derranged as murder than for just being a bit selfish and slap dash.

But you are right, unless it has happened I cant know. Failure of the old empathy chip right there....

But we do just keep them out of circulation until they figure it out or die (in theory)

That's as far ad the 'punishment' goes

The vast majority of us have been unbelievably angry with someone, or hated someone for something (particularly while in the teenage years when everything seems so much more important than it really is). The vast majority of us never acted on that hatred or anger.

I just think that congratulating ourselves and condemning those who failed is missing the point. Why did they fail to control the anger? Surely it is a difference in brain chemistry or mental make up? Maybe they are not mentally ill according to our current set of pigeon holes for illness but equally certainly they are not acting anywhere near the normal way for a human being. Surely that is the primary definition of mental illness?

Not being able to see your victim as a human being, not being able to comprehend the consequences of your actions or enjoying hurting someone sounds very much like mental illness to me.

As I said before the reason for doing it matters.

If the reason for locking up rapists was primarily to prevent a repeat then we would in fact not be locking a lot of them up but offering them therapy instead. So apparently it is currently more important to punish them than to actually stop them from re-offending when they get out....

When we talk about people being evil or just plain bad we are in essence abandoning all responsibility for the situation. We are assuming that we could never have set them on a different path (ie. with better education) and that we can never help them (again with education or treatment). Which is nice and convenient for us but not a very accurate in almost all cases.

I believe with all my heart that if these men had had my life, been brought up by my parents, gone to my school, and been exposed to the values and information that I have been exposed to then this would not have happened.

Maybe I am totally deluded....