I know I should feel sorry for someone who's been beaten up, but...

[MayaAngelsFromTheRealmsOfCool]

...when that someone is one of the thugs who killed Stephen Lawrence, and he's been beaten up in prison, I kind of don't. At all. And if he were sent back to that prison now I'd think: Oh well, tough, innit?

I know that logically it's unethical, but...y'know.
It's like when Gaddafi was killed (obviously his crime was on a far larger scale). Someone who's brutalised other people...I find it hard to work up any sympathy.

Anyone else feel this way?

Entropy, I find your argument extraordinarily patronising towards people who do bad things. First of all, we all do bad things, and we all do good things. The difference between the actions of criminals and those who don't commit crime is the grade of badness.

Someone who has had a troubled childhood and then goes on to commit, let's say violent crimes, as a follow-up to their troubled past, is still making a choice. It might be harder for them than for someone more relationally privileged. But it is still their choice. That said, people from good family backgrounds still commit crimes and hurt people. That too is a choice.

The psychopathy angle is a totally different and poorly understood ballgame, so I won't pretend to have an informed viewpoint on it.

The majority of us make choices about our good and bad actions. We choose whether or not to fix that damned emotional problem stemming from our childhood which makes us easy prey to manipulation. We have to accept that if we don't tackle it, or another problem in our inner world which maybe tempts us to nick stuff or grope strangers, those antisocial actions are a consequence of our choices.

If you think you have no control over/ responsibility for your bad choices, then the same goes for your good ones, and that makes you a little bit more than a complex assortment of non-thinking, reactive synapses. As for me, I am 100% willing to accept responsibility for all my choices, bad and good.

" what goes around comes around". Sorry, I think this is wishful thinking. Lots of very bad people never get their comeuppance

"Punishing criminals does very little indeed to reduce the suffering of victims and families as can be seen by the vast number of times that people leave the court saying things that add up to 'well Im glad they wont hurt anyone else but it doesnt really feel better.'"

Do you think if you asked Stephen Lawrence's parents if they'd rather his killers be freed and turn up to some rehabilitation programme twice a week rather than being slammed up, missing their families/homes, they'd choose that?

I know someone who was murdered at 16: stabbed on his own doorstep and left to crawl up his parents stairs where he died at the foot of their bed, begging his dad to help him. It was a case of mistaken identity. They were supposed to stab his older brother. I've never seen such anguish as I saw in his parents at his funeral. The bloke that stabbed him got 25 years minimum. The dead boy's mum collapsed in relief at the verdict. She had been petrified that he would walk free and come back for her other son. How do you think she and his father would have felt if prison was simply there to counsel that murdering bastard on his terrible upbringing and offer no punishment, whilst her son is lying in a grave? If it were my child, of course I would know that punishment wouldn't bring them back but I would feel some satisfaction in knowing that they were locked up for a fair portion of their lives. I just would.

Maya's last post is excellent.

Well maya your last statement kinda sums up where I am coming from. I think if you programmed a neural net to match these guys brains then subjected it to all the input they had received, it would behave the same way they did. They are the product of their genes and environment just as surely as the do gooders of the world are. Society let them down by failing to provide them with the education and emotional stability that they needed to live fulfilled balanced lives, for that same society to then punish them for its failing seems wrong as well as pointless.

Obviously there is a tendency for people who have been dealt unfortunate personality cards (selfishness, depressive tendencies, anger problems) to put it down to luck whereas people who have been dealt the good stuff (tenacity, kindness, selflessness) are more likely to take personal credit.

In fact there is another thread going about this in which people point out that mums who have had horrible birth experiences know that there are some hurdles that no amount of willpower and preparation can get you through but mums who had easy births tend to attribute it to their own superiority in approach. Or in other words humans are forever claiming credit for things they actually had little or no control over.

While I can do my best to act like a better person, I can no more think myself kind, nice, tenacious etc. than I can think myself smarter, prettier or gay.

So no I dont take responsibility for my character flaws, but neither do I take credit for my character assets.

"Why therefore should society condone physical punishment which falls beyond a recognised lawful framework. If reprisals are condoned within the legal framework then we are on our way towards complete anarchy and to allow them to happen merely undoes all of the work that has been done in relation to improve the operation of the the formal frameworks (police and judiciary) as a result of the lobbying and campaigning undertaken by the Lawrence family"

No-one is condoning it. It's just that some of us don't really care if it does happen. There is a difference.

I think relief that people who cannot keep from violence are off the streets is perfectly reasonable. But if you could have given the murderer a magic pill that made it impossible that he would re-offend wouldn't that have the same effect? Of course it would be nice if we could get the pill in before anyone got killed, and if we had that ability as a society wouldnt we see it as our failing if we did not get it to the murder in time to prevent the act?

If a person is mentally unwell they rarely go to prison, they will be detained in a hospital. So the argument that they all have issues is incorrect (although some prisoners do have controlled mental health issues but they are competent for the processes of the law system and therefore able to face the consequences of their crimes).

I used to work in direct contact with prisoners, you do get those who commit crime as a way of life (broken homes! poor start in life, don't know any better, gets into drugs etc) but they dont normally commit the most serious crimes. Murderers and cat A prisoners (serious offenders) are, unfortunately, normal people who do bad things.

Scariest person I ever met was a man who had committed horrific crimes but was the most polite, courteous and almost charming man. He was well educated to university level, had a great upbringing, and a stable life. He was assessed by psychiatrists who deemed him sane. He was just evil. Not every prisoner has a sob story or a reason for bad behaviour, sometimes, in the Lawrence case, people just have nasty ideals and like to carry them out.

I have no sympathy for the two men in prison, however I don't condone the behaviour of the other prisoners either.

Damn this has moved on since I started posting!

Justice has multiple tiers - justice has to be seen to be done in the eyes of the public, it is supposed to serve as a deterent to other members of society and it is about making the victims feel that the perpetrator has been punished.

So actually it is about all of those things, and the law and the criminal justice system represent that. What you don't see is that they don't just go to prison, there is massive work done in prisons about rehabilitation and preparation for establishing a normal life when out of prison, to reduce the risk of reoffending. There are drugs courses, and counselling and so on and so forth. Admittedly, those services are in short supply but there are services willing to help. People aren't just sent to prison and left to get on with it (well not from my experience).

entropy, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you are responsible for your personality. You can teach an old and young dog new tricks; it just depends on whether that dog chooses to be open to it!

fwiw, I had a very difficult labour and birth both times. But I know that my hard work in preparation made it more manageable, physically, mentally and emotionally, than it could have been had I not prepared. How does that fit into your framework?

Interesting post about the criminals you encountered, Reindeer.

to Bupcakes!

"I think relief that people who cannot keep from violence are off the streets is perfectly reasonable. But if you could have given the murderer a magic pill that made it impossible that he would re-offend wouldn't that have the same effect? Of course it would be nice if we could get the pill in before anyone got killed, and if we had that ability as a society wouldnt we see it as our failing if we did not get it to the murder in time to prevent the act?"

Rehabilitation isn't a magic pill, though. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Also, sometimes murders are committed by "normal" people who've had good upbringings. They may have acted in a moment of madness/fear and gone too far. In the cold light of day, they may be in shock that they could do such a thing and they may know immediately that this isn't something that they would repeat. So would rehabilitation work here? I mean rehabilitation as the sole reaction to their crime? Or do they still need to pay for what they did by giving up a portion of their life's freedom?

A family member of mine was murdered and while i really really hate the person who did it for taking him away from us and depriving him of his future, i still don't want that person harmed. I want for his prison experience to be a constant reminder to him of the terrible act on that night,not a victimisation while he is in prison.
Like our suffering should be more important? Obviously very naive of me to think that is what he is doing in prison,but still that's what i would prefer iykwim?
Also i felt so very very sad on the day of his sentencing when his family tried to give him a bag with soap etc in it and it wasn't allowed as he would receive all that when he got there.
All i could think was how his family must have felt preparing these things for him and how he would then feel not being allowed to take it with him,it really humanised him to me, perhaps that's why i don't want another thug to beat him up as now hes just a person,instead of the big bad man who stabbed my lovely bil?
Sorry for typos,am on my phone

Maya, yes the scariest criminals were very intelligent individuals who knew how to manipulate people, much more intimidating that the thugs.

Bupcakes, rehabilitation doesn't always work, I was just replying to Entropys view that prisoners need more help and support - they do receive it. Whether or not they choose to facilitate it properly is up to them, and again, part of their choice. But I was trying to show that we are not an inhumane society because we lock people up in prisons, they do try to help them too.

maya please do tell me how I make myself a nicer person?

As I said I can act nice but to change the way my brain processes information at the fundamental level? How is that done?

I dont think that walking around with have a nice day smile plastered on my face is in any sense the same as actually caring if people have a nice day. How do I make myself care if I simply dont?

bup gods I certainly didnt mean to imply that the magic pill exists at the moment! But if it did and someone who needed it got missed and then committed murder, I think we would feel like the authorities had screwed up not the person, we would administer the pill and then let them loose. Why punish them for our mistake?

My god, could you imagine how hellish it would be to live with someone who pathologically refuses to accept responsibility for their actions?

PARTNER A: "Honey, you've left your dirty dishes all over the table for days/ not even tried to flush that poo away/ left those medicines out where the children can reach them!"

PARTNER B: "Well, I couldn't help it, it's not me that did those things - it was my personality. So there is no need for me to apologise or make reparation, and I certainly can't promise not to do it again."

PARTNER A:

I feel very strongly that Justice is a very different thing to revenge/vengeance.

so whilst i would not feel saddened or upset on their behalf, i don't rejoice in his being attacked.

"Bupcakes, rehabilitation doesn't always work, I was just replying to Entropys view that prisoners need more help and support - they do receive it. Whether or not they choose to facilitate it properly is up to them, and again, part of their choice. But I was trying to show that we are not an inhumane society because we lock people up in prisons, they do try to help them too."

Oh yes, I agree! I was saying the same thing pretty much. I do think that prison should be about the three things that another poster listed earlier: public safety, punishment and rehabilitation.

It is important to remember that prison as a deterrent DOES work for most people. Would it work so well if the punishment element was removed entirely and became more like The Priory for criminals?

It's like when Gaddafi was killed (obviously his crime was on a far larger scale). Someone who's brutalised other people...I find it hard to work up any sympathy.

No it isn't, that scenario is far more scary. I also hope you appreciate the irony of the people who shot, beat and sodomised with a knife (or whatever it was) when he was wounded and unarmed will be the very people who probably take over the country of Libya. Doesn't it make you feel all warm inside knowing what the new leaders are capable of i.e. brutalising people just as Gaddafi did.

I posted that [smug]

Actually it was a blatant rip from a criminal manual. But at least we in agreement!

Okay, entropy, here's one approach.

You notice that every time you are in situation A, you do act Z. And it irritates you.

You notice this again and again.

You ask yourself: Why do I keep doing Z?
You ask yourself: I keep doing Z when I am in situation A. What is the connection between these two events?
You ask yourself: When I am in situation A/ do act Z, how do I feel? What is the consequence of doing act Z? Supposing instead of Z, next time I am in situation A, I try act P? What might happen? Might I feel different? Might others react differently to me?

Then you have a few failed attempts at trying Act P. And you get pissed off with yourself, but what you fail to realise is that these failures are the beginning of something new.

Eventually you strike gold. You found yourself in Situation A, tried Act P and got a completely different outcome. Result! You have learned something about yourself, about life, and you are now in a position to (wait for it...wait for it...)

(...here it comes...)

change yourself!

'Tis possible. I have done it a hundred times over and will continue to do so until I draw my last breath.

FWIW even if you don't try and change yourself, life will alter your personality without you realising it. Now, are you happy to subject yourself to other forces in this way? Wouldn't you rather excercise some control over that?

Pick one thing about yourself that you find irritating. Nothing too overwhelming, just a minor to medium fault. I have no doubt that with dedication you can change it - it might take days, weeks or months. But depending on how much application you give it, you can change it.

Reindeer on the whole I agree with what you are saying but what does it mean to say someone is 'evil'?

How is a lack of empathy or any feeling that hurting other people is wrong something that a person can change about themselves? Surely when we say someone is pure evil we are stating that we consider their mental processes to be substantially deviant from those of an average human being. Isnt that the same as saying they are mentally unwell?

In my book evil = mentally unwell. Its just that for some reason we will tolerate some forms of illness as illness and give them fancy names and attach no blame, but other forms of illness we choose to label as evil and attach blame. I honestly dont understand why the line is where it is. As someone posted earlier, suicide used to be criminal, as did epilepsy. One day we will look back at all the demands to punish murders in this day and age in the same light we now look back at people punishing others for epilepsy back in the day.

Sorry maya that describes changing the way I act not the way I think.

I have altered my behaviour a million times to cover for my basic lack of kindness but that doesnt make me kind. It makes me an actor.

It is important to remember that prison as a deterrent DOES work for most people. Would it work so well if the punishment element was removed entirely and became more like The Priory for criminals?

Exactly

There does have to be an element of deterrent when it comes to crime.

Especially given the fact there are professionals who are paid to 'embellish' things in court.

And its always going to be easier for a genuinely kind empathetic person to react correctly in a surprising situation than a well practised mimic. But then maybe I am just evil.