AIBU to think that generalising about men is totally unacceptable

[Hedgeblog]

I have recently seen a few status updates on facebook on the lines of 'arghh men, why can't my DH do what I tell him'. Also on here I have also seen similar posts that men are just useless.
AIBU to think that generalising about men in this way is totally unacceptable and should the negative stereotyping be the other way round women would be in uproar.

'I'm not tarring all men with the same brush. But I do think that certain generalisations - whether positive or negative - can be made about men and women. I would hazard a guess that more men than women play Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto. That more men than women join the army and like the idea of seeing military action. That more women than men talk about wedding dresses, bride magazine and how many children they want.'

But these differences are social, aren't they? If you could prove they were differences between men and woman, as opposed to differences between the social roles men and women are offered, I'd be surprised.

I don't think a single person has suggested there are no social differences between men and women, so that is kind of wandering off your point about cognitive/biological differences isn't it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1015826-to-think-its-irresponsible-for-my-OH-to-leave-our

Perfect example

I hate these generalisations too. I have a v good friend with a twonk of a husband. She tells me regularly no point leaving him as all men are the same. I try gently to point out they're really not but she doesn't budge.

Latest research is basically suggesting almost all differences amongst toddlers is due to parental gender bias/differentiation. Scary thought really.

My mum always sighs and says 'boys' as if males are barely tolerable. Have told her to zip it around my gorgeous two!

This girl is trying to explain why men play more Call of Duty.

duvet - that's really nasty of your mum! I hope she now keeps quiet.

FreckedLeopard
" that a perception of a negative trait of women is the fact that women talk more, gossip more and bitch more."

Whereas research may suggest that men are the bigger gossips
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1311999/Men-gossip-more-than-women-to-boost-their-egos.html

Agree with WorraLiberty. I bet lots of these women made similar mistakes when they were learning to cook, or first started doing housework, or looking after a baby. None of us are born with these skills, and most people have a few mishaps while they're getting the hang of domestic stuff. I certainly did! I've burnt food, ruined pans, melted toxic-smelling plastic all over the oven (don't ask), burnt a hole in a nice top with a hot iron, shrunk a wool jumper on a 40 degree wash. But I'm female so no one said I should just give up and leave it to my wife, or that I was inherently useless at that stuff and an idiot for even trying.

Similarly DP (male) has dented the car in various parking/spatial awareness failures, got hopelessly lost when driving, and had the odd DIY disaster, but again no one would suggest it's because of his gender! These are all just things that take a bit of practice.

I think sometimes these women just don't have much else in their lives, or many skills or achievements of their own, so it's important to them to assert their importance/superiority over men in the domestic sphere. And the men who make nasty generalisations about women's abilities are probably rather insecure themselves.

Take any of these jobs that people say men can't do and put it in a professional setting - men can't cook, can't clean, even can't look after babies... - they damn well can when they are paid to do it.

I think it's sometimes to do with how people have been brought up - not just not having much in your life. My parents keep to very strict gender roles because they literally never lived alone, never needed to learn the roles of the other gender. Of course I worry about what will happen when one of them dies - it's a horrible thing to think about, but they would each be lost without the other, especially my dad who would not be able to feed himself properly.

I think that sad reality is often ignored when younger people make jokes about 'meh, men!' ... it's all very well when you are 30 to think it's funny to tease your husband about being crap at the housework but it isn't so funny when he's old and alone and still can't manage.

(Sorry, I'm being really depressing on this thread!)

LRD - she is much better since being told plus, quelle surprise, I see her very little these days.

Sorry you don't see her much - I'm sure your boys are lovely btw.

I think it is utter bollocks too. DD's father has done roughly the same amount of childcare as we (DP and I) have since she was born. No biggie. But the amount of people who say "oh isn't he good" because he has bought her a school coat. She needed a coat. He took her to the shop, tried a few on her, thought about school uniform matching and then bought it. What's good about that? No one is calling us "good" when we do it !!!!!!!

The only thing he can't do as well as DP is fancy hairstyles, but that is lack of practice as he and his brother didn't ever play hairdressers with their crew cuts. I'm no good at fancy hair either. Whereas DP had a baby sister with long hair.

I disagree that it's social conditioning that has the effect of making behaviour 'boyish' or 'girly'.

I'm very much of the field of science that suggests that gender differences are determined prenatally and that cultural and social expectations are more marginal in determining male/female patterns of behaviour.

This particular case study: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer is fascinating.

Is is entirely surprising that research psychology, a field dominated by men, has found that gender differences (which favour men in almost every regard) are not the result of conditioning?

I found, when I looked at a lot of research from a jaded feminist perspective, when women joined the debate the differences were often spurious. For example, animal research found that infidelity was a male pursuit. Us ladies didn't fool around. Since then masses of research has shown that female animals often 'cheat'. Men were also more intelligent until girls started overtaking boys further and further in education. Now we're 'failing' boys. How come we weren't failing girls?

Funnily enough, only this afternoon I was reading in Delusions of Gender about the supposition that men are better than women at spatial reasoning. She explains how students at a private college were asked to perform a spatial reasoning task.

"Before the test one group of students filled out a form on which they were asked to report their gender. The other group was not asked this question but was instead asked to name their university. In this way, one group was ?primed? to consider themselves in the light of gender identity, whereas the other was primed to think of themselves under the category ?private college student.?

Men primed to think of their gender showed a marked improvement in performance over men who were primed to think of themselves as students at a private college. Exactly the opposite was observed in women. Women primed to consider their status as students at a private college significantly outperformed women who?d been primed to think of themselves as women.

It is as if the mere questions ? male? female? student? ? by reminding the students what kind of person they are, determined how well they could perform on the test."

Fascinating.

Yanbu op. if the generalisation pertains to having a penis, facial hair, or being a bit taller than women, it's ok. Beyond that, you're on dodgy ground.

That is fascinating. They have also shown differences when the gender of the person administering the tests in research conditions changes.

"For me, that's indicative of the way that women are more nurturing than men."

For me it's indicative that one of the thing that society demands of women is to be 'good' mothers and generally self-sacrificing.

OrmIrian
I agree

Interesting Ayefarted

'Men were also more intelligent until girls started overtaking boys further and further in education. Now we're 'failing' boys. How come we weren't failing girls?'

I agree MrsTerryPratchett. I work in Early Years education and the huge outpouring of concern about boys doesn't sit quite right with me either. If boys are falling behind then of course they should get support to catch up, but it seems that when things were the other way around, that was seen as being the 'natural order of things'.

That'Delusions of Gender' book is fabulous and so interesting. I'm thinking of carrying a copy with me at all times to shove in the faces of colleagues who talk about how 'girls and boys are fundamentally different', and how education is now delivered in a way that 'favours girls'

Off to spend my Christmas gift voucher on Delusions of Gender - thank you for the recommendation.
My brother-in-law said over Christmas that of course babies of different sexes are hard-wired differently and there are studies to prove it (boys like trucks, girls like dolls, etc). My Dad agreed. I kept quiet because I've had too many Christmases spoilt by family rows and as the usual culprits weren't there I didn't want yet another. I am thinking that this book may be good to lend around the family to disabuse them of their notions.

FreckledLeopard, that is a really interesting case which I hadn't heard of before, so thanks for that. My reading of the situation would be that Reimer's rejection of the 'feminine' persona his parents were forcing him to adopt was less to do with hornmones and more to do with the unpleasant and humiliating behaviour that was expected of him as a 'girl' - wearing thin frilly dresses in the winter, engaging in highly questionable sexual play with his twin brother. The whole thing sounds extremely tragic and that it was highly traumatising for the whole family

Off to get Delusions of gender now too, thank you Aye farted.

Just looked at some facebook updates and yet another women saying why can't men cook and clean like women rant rant rant men men men!

It's so bloody annoying.

I've set the cooker [not the one I have atm] on fire twice. I did the same with the first microwave because I forgot you couldn't use tin foil in it. I don't buy expensive pans because inevitably at some point I burn them. I'm also female so what your friend said is bullshit.

Oh, btw, I also have an amazing capacity to turn a blind eye to a messy room if there is something else more interesting that I want to do at that moment in time.

On the other hand I've put together beds, wardrobes, drawers, bookcases etc all by myself.

Quite often the ones who rant about men being rubbish etc are the ones who facilitate their partner's laziness by doing everything around the house.