to never want to take DCs to visit my mother in Greece ever again?

[Bibbo]

Just got off skype with my mum. Need to offload!

She and stepdad moved to a Greek island about 6yrs ago. Have been out to visit her every year since they moved.

My relationship with my mum changed when I first had DD (now 4.5). Basically I couldn't be her up-all-night drinking buddy any more, and we went from having a very loving and close relationship to one fraught with stresses and frequent arguments, all around her and stepdad's treatment of DD.

Essentially, they don't really like babies and young children. DD is a very shy and sensitive child but they give no allowances for this - they rarely play with her or engage with her on her level - the only time they pay her attention is when they are telling her off, and then they wonder why she is terrified of them. One of their favourite sayings is that 'raising children is a lot like training dogs' (arrrrgh makes me so angry!!). Hence my stepdad is always snapping at DD, 'look me in the eye! look me in the eye!' which of course she cannot do as she is scared stiff of him. Then they wonder why she doesn't come up to them and give them great big hugs and sit on their laps etc - which then results in more negativity towards DD, and the cycle goes on.

They tell her off for things that I don't consider to be naughty, such as minor table manners issues like elbows on table - she is 4 FFS! And when I say, 'she is my daughter, telling her off is my business,' mum says, 'yes well she may be your daughter but this is my house'.

Everybody else thinks DD is a wonderful little girl and it is only from mum and stepdad that I get this constant disapproval about her. It is quite hard to engage my mother and talk to her calmly about all this stuff. I have tried coaching her, setting up games and situations to get them interacting, and talking to mum gently about it. Nothing has worked. It makes it difficult that my mum has a tendency to fly off the handle and flounce out of the room etc rather than finish a discussion.

Every single year I have taken my family out there to see them, trying to help a good relationship to develop between DD and mum - thinking 'maybe this year they will crack it' - and every year is a disaster. The last time, this Nov, DH stayed in the UK to work and just me and DD went. There were so many arguments, because I was having to leap to her defence all the time and ended up shouting at them several times to leave her alone. It was horrible.

Anyway, have just got off skype with mum and she was saying, 'when are you coming out next year then?' I am expecting DC2 in July so was cagey, saying, 'well we are quite busy next year, let's just see how it goes'. I really don't want to expose DD to her and stepdad any more. I don't want to go, no matter how lovely the island is where they live! She also wants to come and help out for a week when DC2 is born and I am highly ambivalent about that too - remembering how she had a go at me last time that happened, saying I was 'malingering' and should get up off the sofa and get on with things, when I had double mastitis!!

I guess this whole thing makes me really sad because my mum and I used to be so close but now whenever I talk to her there are so many elephants in the room that we can't be friends like we used to when I was younger.

what a mammoth post! I appreciate it if you have read this far! and I would love to know if you think IABU to cut this relationship right down to the very basics, or whether you think I should keep trying...

Cut it down. I know it's hard when it's not the relationship you want or have had but that's life.

You cannot expose your dd to this anymore- I had vile relatives like that. They are not part of my life now and certainly not part of dds.

Also you know you need to be cocooned when you have a newborn- but your mother isn't going to do that so cut her out. My mum also not best like that so I have no compunction in limited contact with her post birth (dd due in jan) as better to be alone than deal with that.

Stick to skype.
Sounds like you all have a rubbish time, so do something nicer instead.
If your mother asks why, you have the option then of fobbing her off (too busy this year etc) or actually telling her why you don't want to go.

it does sseem a shame to cut them out of your life, when you want a relationship between your children and your parents, and it seems that is what they want too. How about an email, explaining why you are reluctant to come, and giving a list of conditions for you to come out and see them again. Your mum can flounce about as much asshe likes, but the email wll stiull be there when she stops flounceing, with the same message. If she just says no, you haven't lost anything, and if she thinks about it, I'm sure she would prefer to try on your terms rather than loose her DGC altogehter.

Does your step father have children? Maybe he is just ignoratnt?

How does your DH react when he is over in Greece with you? does he not tell them were to get off?

I agree with Crabapple - worth laying out what's wrong and your conditions to make things better to at least try to salvage things. If that doesn't work then stick to skype but at least you're no worse off and will know you've tried. Good luck as sounds horrible position to be in.

Step father does have 2 grown up kids but they are not terribly close. Not sure how much involvement he had with them when they were young.

DH is heartily sick of the whole situation! He likes my mum and gets on with her but the thing with DD has damaged the relationship. We have had 4-way stand up rows over it in the past. When he comes to Greece he tends to take DD away and play with her, partly so I can get on with mum and have a proper chat, but also to protect DD. This was why I decided just DD and I should go out last time - because I thought that maybe without DH taking DD away, it would give mum and her a better chance to get to know each other... so much for that tactic

I wonder if an email would work. in some ways i think we may as well as we have nothing to lose. i can definitely think of a few ground rules to lay down! but i can imagine how awkward the atmosphere would be when we meet after the email is sent and i just think, can I be bothered to deal with that?

The only other option is avoidance tactics. We have plenty of excuses we can use in the next year or so when DC2 arrives. But it's probably more noble to be up front, isn't it. I think it will come to a head next year anyway. I feel a big family row brewing!

They sound vile. poor DD. Prehaps try the email but ultimatley you know if they don't change its not fair on DD.

Don't let her come over to "help" when dd2 is born though - I made that mistake myself (let my father emotionally blackmail me into having her to stay because she so wanted to help - of course she didn't lift a finger and had been acting totally as a guest, and hogged my baby when I wanted to be the one on the sofa having newborn cuddles and recovering from my c-section I was instead waiting on her and being criticised for not having washed the floors/ having friends she didn't like/ providing meals that were not the ones she would normally have etc etc. I set the perimeters on my terms when dc3 was born and invited her for a weekend to meet the baby but I am still bitter about the weeks after dc2 was born - letting her come to help when you know she won't help is a recipe for disaster.

Knowing me, I would still go once a year and stay elsewhere so she hasn't got the 'under my roof' card. I agree you should lay out an e-mail - basically saying what you say here. I would feel she didn't like/love her DGD if she acted that way and I would say so.

Please don't send an email. While you will most DEFINATELY be in the right, you might live to regret it. Just fob them of for 2 or 3 or more years. Lack of ££, Lack of time, DD now at school so you can only come in the holidays etc. but don't do something you might regret by cutting of all contact. Err on the side of caution, although (of course) protect your dc and just stay away from them.

Agree with domedon about telling M you feel she doesn't like/love DD.

Sounds like your DM might be easier to deal with on your own turf. Perhaps they could stay with you next Christmas when DC2 will be 5 months old. At least it will give you a chance to say "My house, my rules"!.

I would say please don't take your DD there anymore. Your mum and stepdad can't engage with her and not only that, their behaviour must be quite frightening to a young child. You say yourself that you're having to defend your daughter all the time, that's not any kind of beneficial relationship.

Your daughter is old enough to feel scared, not enjoy the experience and pick up on your stress at having to defend her. Later on, she might wonder why you kept exposing her to it. I wouldn't, not anymore, you've tried.

I think I would try one more time to explain it to my mum, on the proviso that if she flounces out, that's the end of discussion. You need to tell her exactly how it feels to visit and let her know that it won't be continuing that way and why. If she's amenable, you can work out some other mode of meeting - possibly you staying with DD in a hotel in Greece and meeting up for the odd day out. Maybe when they aren't on their home territory they will be less aggressive.

I feel sorry for you, it's a horrible situation. :(

How would fobbing them off help though? Surely it needs to be addressed otherwise there will be resentment on all sides as your mum will realise she's being fobbed off & you'll still be upset with her. An email might not be the best way to do it but at least it can be properly thought through & ensures all points are covered without heated emotion coming into a discussion. The immediate conversation afterwards might not be the easiest but still better to give it a chance than cutting her out of your life completely.

I would also feel desperatley sad that she doesn't 'like' children - it must reflect on your realtionship!?! She's not meant to be your drinking buddy - she's meant to be your mother. Nice if you are ALSO friends but the mothering should come first. She should be supporting you on the wonderful but difficult road of motherhood not berating you for having a 'sensitive' child. Tell her if she can't keep her mouth shut and show love not disapproval she can see you on skype only.

My Mum and Dad were a bit like this. They were incredibly strict, Unhealthily so as i was growing up. They hate change and I think couldn't stand to see me growing up and making decisions unilaterally for my ds. We had a number of rows about it and then the end I just stopped taking ds there. We barely spoke for two years, sorted things out then they started again when dd was born so i cut them off immediately. They are alright now but I had to be ruthless so they would see I would not put up with any nonsense towards my dc.

Your OP made me so sad for your dd. I wouldn't take her again at all if I were you. YANBU.

OK. thanks for the advice. Am coming down on the side of avoidance tactics.

1. She must definitely NOT come out when DC2 is born - maybe after a week but she must stay in a hotel. We can tell her there is no room here (true anyway)

1. No trip to Greece next year as too busy with new DC

1. When we next go - IF we go - we will stay in a hotel as their house is too small for the 4 of us

btw akaemma I really sympathise with your position. I can see this whole thing re-igniting when DC2 arrives. Well done for dealing with it so well! you are obv a strong person not to be beaten by such a strict upbringing and not to inflict it on your DCs

I would tell her that you are not coming to Greece, and exactly why, don't beat about the bush. Your little girl is important, not their feelings. Sounds like a nightmare, I would not like my child exposed to that.

It's tricky this, because I am getting the feeling you have a problem generally with other people eg teachers telling off your DD? Is this the case?
I am wondering whether it is the fact that they are correcting her that you object to or the manner in which they do it.Do they shout?

I really don't think avoidance tactics are enough... You need to think of your dd and for her sake at least, set it all out. Write that email, tell her exactly what is NOT acceptable and why it is not and that you cannot have any more of the old behaviour. I think you are setting yourself up for big stress and for your daughter too, if you have her out in the first few weeks of the birth. You dont need that and your dd definitely doesn't.
You must confront the issues for your dd'd sake at least, this kind of behaviour (from them) is damaging. do not let it continue, put your kids and dh first - your mother is being awful.

I wouldn't email, but I wouldn't avoid the issue.

Just say look, mum, you behave like ogres to DD and of course she's terrified of you. We'll come again when she's a bigger and her behaviour doesn't piss you off.

And I think you would be a fool if you let your mother come after the birth. Remember those hormones - how are you going to feel if you're exhausted, trying to bond with the newborn and your daughter is frightened and clingy because her grandmother is snapping at her constantly? Hotel or not, it's a recipe for disaster, IMHO.

Well pantocow I have asked myself the same question lately. I don't mind teachers telling her off, or my PILs telling her off when they look after her. But I think what bothers me about mum is that she does it while I'm right there. It's like a criticism of my ability to discipline DD. And it's not as if I've ever left DD alone with her - so it's not as though mum is used to disciplining her.

It is a tricky one this so understandable that different people have different views. Have a feeling it might come to a head when I tell her I don't want her coming out for DC's birth. well, if she questions why, I will tell her. and thank my lucky stars she lives thousands of miles away!

Some say email, some say don't... I am one who says do but you need to do what you feel is right on that one. Although you do need to confront the issue somehow still. Definitely don't have her anywhere near you after the birth - unfortunately she is too selfish to be anything but a hinderence.

Just to echo that she mustn't come to help before or after the birth. Your DD will have enough of a shock to have to share her parents with her new sibling without thinking your mum is now taking over her care! (Thinking of my second DC when my MIL and Mum came to help with DC1 as I was having a c-section).

Children are all varied in resilience to criticism, but it must be very hard for an empathetic child who senses tension to have a 'holiday' where she is verbally criticised and pushed away by someone she has been taken there to love and be loved by. Not a lot of fun and potentially weird message - be nice to these people who don't seem to like you much.