to never want to take DCs to visit my mother in Greece ever again?

[Bibbo]

Just got off skype with my mum. Need to offload!

She and stepdad moved to a Greek island about 6yrs ago. Have been out to visit her every year since they moved.

My relationship with my mum changed when I first had DD (now 4.5). Basically I couldn't be her up-all-night drinking buddy any more, and we went from having a very loving and close relationship to one fraught with stresses and frequent arguments, all around her and stepdad's treatment of DD.

Essentially, they don't really like babies and young children. DD is a very shy and sensitive child but they give no allowances for this - they rarely play with her or engage with her on her level - the only time they pay her attention is when they are telling her off, and then they wonder why she is terrified of them. One of their favourite sayings is that 'raising children is a lot like training dogs' (arrrrgh makes me so angry!!). Hence my stepdad is always snapping at DD, 'look me in the eye! look me in the eye!' which of course she cannot do as she is scared stiff of him. Then they wonder why she doesn't come up to them and give them great big hugs and sit on their laps etc - which then results in more negativity towards DD, and the cycle goes on.

They tell her off for things that I don't consider to be naughty, such as minor table manners issues like elbows on table - she is 4 FFS! And when I say, 'she is my daughter, telling her off is my business,' mum says, 'yes well she may be your daughter but this is my house'.

Everybody else thinks DD is a wonderful little girl and it is only from mum and stepdad that I get this constant disapproval about her. It is quite hard to engage my mother and talk to her calmly about all this stuff. I have tried coaching her, setting up games and situations to get them interacting, and talking to mum gently about it. Nothing has worked. It makes it difficult that my mum has a tendency to fly off the handle and flounce out of the room etc rather than finish a discussion.

Every single year I have taken my family out there to see them, trying to help a good relationship to develop between DD and mum - thinking 'maybe this year they will crack it' - and every year is a disaster. The last time, this Nov, DH stayed in the UK to work and just me and DD went. There were so many arguments, because I was having to leap to her defence all the time and ended up shouting at them several times to leave her alone. It was horrible.

Anyway, have just got off skype with mum and she was saying, 'when are you coming out next year then?' I am expecting DC2 in July so was cagey, saying, 'well we are quite busy next year, let's just see how it goes'. I really don't want to expose DD to her and stepdad any more. I don't want to go, no matter how lovely the island is where they live! She also wants to come and help out for a week when DC2 is born and I am highly ambivalent about that too - remembering how she had a go at me last time that happened, saying I was 'malingering' and should get up off the sofa and get on with things, when I had double mastitis!!

I guess this whole thing makes me really sad because my mum and I used to be so close but now whenever I talk to her there are so many elephants in the room that we can't be friends like we used to when I was younger.

what a mammoth post! I appreciate it if you have read this far! and I would love to know if you think IABU to cut this relationship right down to the very basics, or whether you think I should keep trying...

Look - you are the mother & wife for your little family. Part of the job description (IMO) is to nurture and protect your children; exposing them to people who behave like that is not protecting them.

If this wasn't a relative who behaved like this towards your dd, would you seriously let them within 100 miles of her? Just because you share blood is no reason to let them have the opportunity to hurt her, and then dc2.

I think that it may be a better idea for you to deal with this now, before you have dc2, to get the stress and upset out of the way. An email is a good idea - you could always write 2 - the first being the angry & upset one (that doesn't get sent), and the second being the one that states the bare facts, leaves no room for them to manipulate you, and that sets out your boundaries. This one you send, and stick to, especially when they try and get round you.

Keep her away until she learns to behave herself.

Sounds like a bad situation that will soon blow up, I'm sure.

The first things I thought when reading were:

Did she treat you like this as a child? Were you scared of her?

Do you defend your DD in front of her?

Say, for example your mum asks your DD to remove her elbows from the table (quite a straight forward request to a 4 yr old) and then you jump in saying "leave her alone, she's only 4 ffs" - this is bound to scare your DD more than being asked to take her elbows off the table.

She'll pick up on the tension between the 2 of you if you're both bickering, or if she hears you and your DH discussing how annoyed you both are. This in itself will make her scared of her GM as she'll get the feeling that mommy and daddy don't like GM so she must be some bad, horrible person.

I'm not saying your mother is in the right. But I think any issues you have should be raised well out of the way of your DD.

How exactly do they tell her off - are they shouting? Do they say inappropriate things? Other than elbows on the table, what are they telling her off for?

Ask DD what she thinks. Maybe a letter from DD saying how and why she is scarred.

Do not put your daughter through this again. Say you will only go if they do not try to disciplin your daughter at all.

I'd e-mail her, and tell her how you feel. Be honest in as nice, yet firm way as possible. I like the idea of saying you will consider visiting again once your daughter is older. And tell her no thank-you, I prefer not to have you here when I have the baby, again, I would tell the truth.
I know I would prefer the truth if I was causing grief for any of my children. Perhaps need to come right out and say this, in order for them to begin to start treating you as an equal and respecting your wishes. She is still acting the part of "the mom knows best boss woman"

If your daughter was really causing trouble, ruining furniture, hitting, swearing, and other bad stuff, as you sat there in oblivion saying how great it is your dd is so creative/artist/little diva /bless etc, I could see her cracking finally and saying something to you or the child. But that isn't the case.
They are being unpleasant and no fun for your little girl who is still a baby at 4.5.

Do you think your mother doesn't like the fact she isn't your number one any more?

She railroads over you, doesn't she, with the "this is my house and I will tell her off". You could be in Buck House and that still wouldn't give the queen the right to do what your mother does!

She flounces, does she? What a child she is herself. When she next flounces, let her go and do not bother to make friends. She should be making more effort with you and respecting you as a parent she doesn't respect you though because you are no longer her drinking buddy. How lame is that?

I wouldn't send an email. I'd say over the telephone, "We are not coming to Greece because you are unkind to dd. I cannot protect her as well when I have a new baby."

What was she like when you were a little girl? Did she "train" you too?

The other option to going and stopping in a hotel is having your family holiday that you want and offering for your mum and fil to come too. Though I'm not sure I would do that, but it would save wasting your money on a hotel to have a dreadful time seeing your mum and fil on their turf.

Maybe your Mum has guilt feelings when she sees you and DD - maybe she doesn't think she was a v good mum herself.

But your DD wiil grow up quick so in a couple of years things could be quite different. They will have a different relationship with her (hopefully more fun and loving).
Just avoid them except for skype now.

I would say if you don't want to confront directly, there's a lot of ways you can avoid. RE her coming over, keep it smily when on Skype, say "oh, DH has a couple of weeks paternity leave anyway and his mother is going to help out when he goes back to work. I don't need any help and we won't have room so you'd have to stay in a hotel, but thanks for offering."

Re going to visit, smile and say "Oh, DH has limited holidays and with DC2 being due during the holiday season, by the time we've sorted out a passport it might be the end of the year, and I really don't want to travel with two children on my own, so we're going to holiday in England this year."

Then next year/year after, you're busy, used up holiday allowance, can't afford it this year etc.... my parents spend half the year in France, my DB went this year, it was the first time in a decade, he'd just kept avoiding it. (I've been more recently, but hten I have a small child who finds a cottage in the middle of nowhere fun)

I think in future you should stay in a hotel and then they won't have the 'i's my house' excuse.In any case if you give it a miss next year , your DD will be 6+ when you go next time and probably a lot more outgoing

She sounds absolutely horrible and if you continue to expose your DD to her and her equally horrible husband you will be being massively U.

Thanks everyone. some really good advice here. is so true that it's a potentially weird message lovethesea. and tigerlilly, yes, i am ashamed to say that she has picked up on rows I have had with them (last time she said 'mummy why did you say to your stepdaddy that I am your daughter?) awful, awful atmos for her to have to deal with at her age. am drawing a line under it! thanks all x