to think that when her DS smacked mine in the face, she should have told him off?

[Birdsnotbees]

This is a genuine AIBU as I just don't know whether I'm making too much of this.

Right, so was at a mutual friend's xmas party. All very lovely, kids behaving, grown ups had a few drinks but not pissed. Towards the end of the afternoon the older boys (aged 4) start to get a bit fractious. My DS wanted to play with a toy so I told him to sit and wait. Friend's DS wades in, snatches said toy. My DS tries to get it back. Her DS smacks mine in the face, hard. It made a big noise and left a big red mark. Everyone saw and heard it.

My DS was shocked and I took him away to see if he was OK. Now, my friend is very laid back when it comes to boys being rough. Our two DS's have known each other for years, usually play OK but over the past few months I have noticed her DS getting much rougher. He pushes my DS a lot (and I mean a lot) and can be really unpleasant. If my DS ever pushes back (he doesn't always as he's quite quiet), then her DS wails and makes a HUGE fuss, and only at that point does my friend do anything about it. She rarely (if ever) checks to see if my DS is OK I guess because he's quiet stoic and just takes the flack he gets from this little boy.

But yesterday when her DS hit mine she said nothing AT ALL. Just let her DS keep the toy he'd taken and basically go unpunished. About 10 mins later I heard her DH half-heartedly telling the DS to say sorry, but he refused.

I actually feel quite hurt. It's wrong to hit other people. I couldn't reprimand her son as he did it right in front of her (& everyone else), and so the message to my DS is 'it's wrong to hit other people except when it comes to you.' OK I know I'm reading too much into it with that line but I am pretty upset. No one has ever hit my DS and I'm left having to explain to him why it was wrong that his friend hit him yet no one (including me) told him off.

I don't know what to do. Should I raise it with her (which would end our friendship I know)? Should I cool things off with her and her DS? I feel bad for not sticking up for my DS.

you should have told him off but don't feel bad about not doing so. You were in shock at the situation and it is really hard to know what to do in such a situation when something unexpected happens like that and you are sort of waiting for the other parent to intervene.

I have a friend whose son attacked my son a few times and I just sort of waiting for her to intervene (which she didn't) and then I felt awful afterwards about letting him down. It happens to loads of people.

From now on you will be more alert to such situations and have a better plan of what to do if they do happen - that is how I am now.

I have felt just like you before, I have a friend whose 2yo DS is like this and i have not said something in the past, however i got so pissed off with her attitude that i have started telling her DS off. Not nastily just 'right thats enough stop snatching' or 'no we do not hit> in fact i started a thread about it roughly a month ago. I feel much happier now i have tackled the situation and my friend doesnt seem to be too offended by it. I think that is because like your friend she reckons they should just get on with it, but my DS is only 2

Anyway, i think i would let this incident go, but be prepared in the future to tackle her DS. Not sure about how to explain to your DS but i am sure some more experienced MNers will be along in a bit

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful. I guess I just need the confidence to go with my gut instinct, which is to always intervene - the 'mummy' friends I seem to have made are all of the 'laid back' school, either that or they would have a massive strop if you disciplined their child, so it's good to know that actually it's OK to tell someone else's kid off in front of them.

It spells the end of this friendship for me. I just don't want to be anywhere near someone who thinks that hitting is acceptable. And this little boy's behaviour has been getting worse and worse around my DS - I have noticed that he tends to fight more with DS than anyone else, probably because he thinks he can get away with it? Not anymore. He'll be getting told off by me if he pulls anything again.

I will say that to DS, Christine, thank you. He's a bright boy so he needs to understand that it's not his fault and that it is not OK that no one, his mum included, came to his aid.

x posted with the experienced MNers!

Oh, that's awful. I used to have a friend like that. The worst thing is, she used to make excuses for her DS like "he's just being boisterous" or "he's a real boy" or (worst of all), "he only hits other children if they provoke him first," which apart from being outrageous was also untrue.

I can't really advise - I am not very assertive myself so wouldn't have told the kid off and would find it difficult to have a word with the friend. In my head, I'd be creating fantasy scenarios where I give the child a right old walloping back.

this thread is actually making me feel more confident about it too!

hackmum yup, been doing that. Also a scenario where I actually said something to the bloody mother!!

marthas yes, me too - I hate confrontation but I hope I have the confidence to be more assertive from now on. I am woman, hear me roar.

I can sympathise with you.
It's a really hard parenting dilemma.

Actually, long-term, it's hard to stay friends with people who have such a fundamentally different approach to your (correct, IMO) approach. Sometimes these friendships can only survive if you only see the friend without their child

I'd definitely - calmly bur forcefully - say something to the boy. If that gets her back up then you know where you stand. Don't compromise your standards or your loyalty to your son.

As an aside - I've seen first hand, many times, the effect of the 2laid back" parenting you describe, on the child's behaviour at school .....

I agree with everyone else. In fact I told off the daughter of a friend of mine the other day. She jumped on my DS's back as he was crawling along which gave me a huge fright so I reacted without thinking and I said, quite loudly "DO NOT jump on DS's back!" Surprisingly she didn't turn on the waterworks like she usually does, she just backed off. She actually seems to quite like me because I engage with her and instruct her on what to do whereas her mother just laughs at her and makes fun of her. My friend didn't react at all and doesn't seem put out about it so I will do the same in future if necessary.

I would let this incident drop for now and only say something if another incident occurs. I would agree that the friendship needs to end if your friend isn't willing to do anything about it.

Incidentally my DS is a whirlwind and tends to crawl over other children and steal toys from them. Because I know he's like that I monitor him closely when we're at baby groups and I apologise if he does hurt another child. I'll do that for now as he's only a year old and doesn't understand but as he gets older I will not tolerate him hurting other children in any way. I think that's a parent's duty - otherwise other children will end up avoiding the poor child and that is a horrible thing for him.

The thing is, the "laid back" parenting is actually quite neglectful IMO. Social situations are confusing for small children and they need a parent to guide them on how to behave. If a parent doesn't do that then they're setting the child up for a long future of social failure, particularly at school. It's really unfair and makes me very sad for those children, as they're going to end up having difficulty making friends and are going to be told off a hell of a lot at school.

I have a child with ADHD who can lash out on occasion and I would be mortified if my son did something like this. You absolutely should say something and if there is a situation like that again do not hesitate to tell the child off. At the end of the day there is no excuse at all for aggression or violence and the child needs to be aware that it is unnacceptable.

Oh yes Cailin. But when they are told off at school it's because the nasty school doesn't understand their child, and is trying to stifle their natural boisterous/creativity.

Sadly, sometimes the children aren't rejected, they turn into bullies and get away with it.

boisterousness

That's true actually Jamie, some of the worst children attract a sort of hero-worshipping colony that quickly turns into a gang of bullies. Ugh.

I agree on that, cailin. I know her DS has spent quite a lot of time on the naughty chair at school, and the teacher has had a word with her about it. She didn't seem at all bothered when she told me about this, although it may have been her way of trying to normalise her son's behaviour.

It's just so hard as a) my DS is naturally quite 'good', b) I am strict with him about boisterous behaviour and he does get told off if he goes too far and c) I don't have that much experience of other people's kids, so it's hard to know what is just 'boys being boys' and what is not.

Like you, cailin I monitor his behaviour and step in if need be, but I've been made to feel like I'm being over-the-top (by her and others) in the past - it really dents my confidence as parent.

I do also worry that her DS will turn into a bully and that my DS will bear the brunt. I was bullied as a child so am hyper aware, which makes me feel even worse that I didn't step in when he hit my DS, as that just 'enables' this cycle of bullying behaviour.

Birds - If I had my time again with DS1, I'd stick up for him more when he was little. I used to think he was too sensitive. Never mind all the people out there who are bring up their children to be insensitive oafs. I've got 2 boys and there's no "boys will be boys" in my house. Trust your instincts. The force is strong with you.......

Just go with your instinct Birds. Some mums I know have the attitude that males are supposed to be rough and boisterous, and that hitting and rough fighting are to be expected, even encouraged It comes from the idea that "real" men aren't too "sensitive" or "girly." As a teacher I've seen confused little boys being pushed into being manly by parents who come from that macho sort of background.

Of course kids will fight but they need to be taught to resolve fights without resorting to physical violence. They certainly will not be allowed to push each other around at school.

Birdsnotbees - yes some children are naturally more compliant than others but an awful lot of it is to do with parenting so give yourself some credit. :)

X posts with Jamie, who speaks a lot of sense :)

my DS had a toy thrown at him by a girl the same age yesterday, so it is not just the boys. again her mum was all softly saying 'darling dont do that' then showering her with praise when she apologised. getting the wrong kind of attention there i reckon - urgh

Oh yes, Martha. That's a good one.

DS2 was inclined to violence as a toddler, and I had to watch him like a hawk. He used to get a perverse reward from me getting too het up, so hoiking him away and making him sit down while I ignored him (or leaving) worked better than screeching .

I always apologised to the other parent/child if he did manage to hit another child, though

Jamie and Cailin - you know what, thank you. May the force be with you as well...

christine aw, thanks. I am so, so proud of my DS. He is an absolute treasure - we get a lot of comments about how well-behaved he is, what good company he is, and I can take him anywhere. He has his moments like all of them but I think he's bloody wonderful. I worry so much that he will be bullied, he's had a few other kids push him about a bit at school but I've taught him to say very loudly 'you're not my friend anymore' to them and to tell a teacher, which seems to have worked.

Thanks everyone. I feel bloody awful about this, have been in tears at my bloody crapness at not standing up for the person in the world I love and adore the most. How crap am I? But I will not let this happen again, even if every bone in my passive little body is saying 'keep your head down!'. Bollocks to it. The boy comes first.

And breathe.