To think that being Tory doesn't make you thick?

[RainbowSheep]

Ok, my family are all very liberal (I mean my parents, aunts & uncles, who incidently have all had lots of money & opportunities throughout their lives). Their parents (who were poor working class) were more conservative as are me and my brother, who are both pretty poor. We recently had a family get together where I was told by my uncle (university lecturer) that Tories were unitelligent and I was beginning to sound like an idiot for having conservative views... I don't think I am particularly right wing.

"I can't believe you didn't think it was anti Tory to be in favour of gay marriage."

The thing is, Tories, like the Left, come in an awful lot of flavours. The libertarian right I imagine would be quite likely to be in favour of gay marriage (on the grounds that its not up to the State to police individuals' relationships), whereas many of the more old fashioned socially conservative Left might be against.

Similarly, lots of us on the Left were very much against identity cards, and many of the other more authoritarian manifestations of Labour in power (and Labour always do have authoritarian tendencies in power). Whereas I suspect many authoritarian socially conservative Tory voters would have been in favour.

A great example of all this is the swing in attitudes to the Common Market / European union between the Left being anti (remember Tony Benn campaigning against) and the Right being pro (on grounds of being good for business). Whereas of course now the assumption is that if you are Left you are pro, if you are Right you are anti.

(Of course not always the case, many, many left wing economists were extremely anti entering the Euro in particular.)

I vote Tory. Sorry.
To be honest I think both parties (labour and Tory) have positives and negatives. I do agree cuts are going to have to be made. Across the board. I appreciate that there are some very rich people that seem to earn a lot for not doing all that much.
We are in the 40% tax bracket (so suppose are typically Tory) but will actually be worse off under Tory government. I am a teacher which is typically left wing.
But I do not agree with all the benefits labour handed out. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying no one should receive benefits or help but I have worked in am area where people made a choice to stay on benefits and to have more children to get more benefits. They were not ashamed to say it either. And I will tell you now the money did not go on their eight offspring who came to school hungry without being fed.
I also think it has become too acceptable to live on benefits, not that you should be ashamed of it, but in some communities it almost seems a badge of honour. I also do not like things like EMA. Nice in theory but open to abuse. There were students forging signatures on time sheets, parents lying to cover their children so theyd still get paid. I know it probably helped some people but in general? Massive waste of money. They'd be better having funding to be applied for on an individual need basis. Also it was based on household not parental income. So some students would lie and give an address of their gran or something so that they'd qualify for the EMA.
Anyway have gone off on a tangent. As I said neither Tories or labour or lib dems are perfect and you just have to vote for whichever you believe will be best for you and for the country.

And it certainly does feel as though the economy is in safe hands now, hmm? How much did you say you would be borrowing again, Gideon?

Huntycat - "Look at a Secondary school on a 'sink estate', and a Secondary school in a 'posh', leafy suburb. The quality of the teachers is better at the latter school, as they can pay better wages."

This is just wrong. THe reason that schools in posh suburbs do better is down to the children and parents being often more motivated and equipped to succeed academically not because they have better teachers that they pay more. IME you get paid more in the sink schools and often the teaching in the inner cities is better than that in the nice leafy suburban schools.

Tralalala has it right. Tories are not thick when it comes to seeing their own advantage. They do seem to think that everyone else is thick, though.

And their is far more government money available in the most challenging areas through things like grants and the pupil premium.

Yep teaching and resources often (not always) better in deprived areas. More funding and schools really strive to get value added.
Where I teach they come in at lower than expected level and leave as average.
Where I live the go in at higher than expected level and leave below average (school just failed ofsted).

Not thick, no. But selfish and uncaring, yes.

their=there

I think that is harsh.
I do not consider myself selfish and uncaring. Nor are many others who I know that vote Tory.
I give to charities, I care about people who for whatever reason are struggling, it makes me sad to think about others (esp children) who are disadvantaged.
I appreciate that I am fortunate. I don't think I'm smug about it and I know I am lucky to have had the life I have had.
However personally I do not believe that very much improved under a labour government. And I don't mean for me personally I mean as a country in general.
I think it is very sweeping to say all Tories are a certain way.

to be fair, most tories are thick, yes. ABU

ooops YABU

what a bunch of shite.

you can't make generalisations about a persons character on the basis of political views, specially when our two main parties offer us so little in actual policy differences.

Oh don't be silly.

The lib dems actual policies are completely and utterly different than the Tories. So you don't even have to compare the obvious labour and Tory.

Beth you may be a lovely kind and generous person but the conservative ideology is not based on kindness and generosity it is based on the individual as opposed to the society. Preferring to prioritise the power of the individual over the power of society as a whole results in a lot of people slipping through the net. The labour or socialist parties believe in the society over the individual, meaning that nobody slips through the net but this may result in individuals being less powerful and wealthy.

Being a conservative means either admitting a lot of people fail at the expense of others, or it means not being aware that they fail. Those tories that believe int he former, are selfish. Those that aren't aware of the deprived, are stupid.

Question this: Why is there no such thing as champagne conservatism?

"I think the reason champagne socialists personally bug me is because I don't feel you should try to speak for groups you are not part of. I wouldn't be comfortable with a group of white people organising on behalf of Black people, or with men presuming to organise on behalf of women because they "know what's best for them." So I think, fine, be an ally - but if it's not primarily your struggle you shouldn't try to speak for a movement. Although I am a Tory, I think it would be a healthy thing for politics in the UK if the Labour Party were to become more of a working-class driven organisation again instead of being controlled by elite people like the Milibands. And similarly I'd like to see more working-class Tories in Parliament.

There is so much wrong with this I don't know where to start. But I'll try. The issue here is about fairness and equality. Why the fucking hell should we continue to promote a class-driven society? Why on earth should there be a working class, represented by only the Labour Party? The Labour Party is about fairness for everyone - in life, in education, in the workplace - regardless of your class, your wealth, your family.

I am fortunate in that I am intelligent, have had a good start in life, thanks to my parents, and I have always worked hard to support myself and my family. That does not mean that I am worth more than those less fortunate than me, or that I deserve more opportunities. It also means that I should absolutely be aware that I am so fortunate, and that others may not be so and that therefore they may need more help than I require/have required.

I want everyone to have the same opportunities that I have had. I want everyone to have opportunities open to them that are not dependent upon their parents, or where they went to school, or who they know. And where things are hard, then I want people to have help available to them.

And for having these desires, you would dismiss me as a 'champagne socialist', who is both presumptuous and patronising? I'm not trying to speak for anyone. I am trying to speak for everyone's rights to equal opportunities and egalitarian treatment.

I get that public sector cuts are disproportionately hurting the less well-off. I really do. But I honestly don't understand what people think the alternative is. Where do people think the money is going to come from?

Well, there are an awful lot of wealthy companies and individuals in the UK. Perhaps they could help? Instead, the money is being taken from the most vulnerable in our society. Do you think this is fair? Or are you just going to wring your hands in a pathetic way and say that you can't think of any alternative?

You really need to read The Frothers Blog and engage your brain a bit more.

Unless, of course, you are one of those thick Tories?

And who would have thought that China, the communist country, the antithesis of right wing tory ideology, whose core belief is to put the communal good above the individual, will now be the richest, most stable and most powerful nation on the planet?

the 'two main parties' doesn't include the lib dems.

the party that promised 18bn of cuts is not vastly different to the one that promised 21 billion, other than the latter promised to trash id cards, not to implement a stupid and authoritarian 'road charging' scheme, and wasn't actually the party than ran up a fat defecit bill in the boom years 2002-7.

you have to pretty blinkered not to notice you are as likely to find conservatives working for hourly pay in shops, call centres and the like as elsewhere. but yet again with the 'all tories are wealthy' crap. obviously false.

China is still in many ways, and for most of the population, a craphole of the direst and most shocking poverty imaginable.

If you are a Tory voter but not stinking rich, rich enough to protect yourself from redundancy or disability, then sorry, you're a fucking moron.

They are tearing the safety net to shreds. And if it is full of holes it will not catch YOU when you fall.

And pride comes before a fall...

I would say that Tories, like religious fundamentalists, can be filed under 'rube' or 'rogue', for the most part.

But then I do know some very nice right-wingers.

I have enjoyable rows on FB with one friend who is all for 'fiscal responsibility', which pretty much boils down to telling people to get on their bike - but then he's a self-employed lifelong bachelor who lives in a rented flat & spends his surplus income on techy toys. He's very bright, but a bit odd in all sorts of ways, although utterly kindhearted; yet he has no experience, or understanding, of being 'responsible' for anyone but himself.

I do think you need to lack a certain degree of empathy to be properly Tory, tbh.

OMG, I don't even know where to star with this! So I won't.

? I was a champagne socialist. See what I wrote here. I don't even need to justify why I dished out £50 notes, it just seemed obvious to me at the time.

? I have NO party affilaition at present; none of them stand for what what I believe in & want (ordinary British moderation).

? China isn't espousing anything, and hasn't changed fundamentally. China is adopting the model it sees as its best chance for world domination, which has been its objective since it was the world leader about 1,200 years ago.The strategy appears to be working. It has NOT improved the lives of Chinese people; in fact the majority have got worse. They've brought back unofficial hangings (lynchings) for townspeople who are deemed to have let the town down in some way. Great model to be following, huh.

lol at China prospering by following the communist ideal!

Gah at typos. It's late; understandable I hope Vodka fingers.

Londonone - it is CERTAINLY true in my SE town. The worst school, in the middle of what is locally known to be the 'sink estate', pays, on average, 20% less to it's teachers than the best performing school on the 'leafier' side of town. Which is why the 'leafy' school has teachers that have been there for 20+ years, and the 'sink school' has a turnover where often a whole department is changed in a school year - most children do NOT end the school year with the same teacher as they started it with.