to think that for some obese people, its not their fault, and surgery is a really good option?

[NotMyBigFatFault]

I weigh 17 and a half stone. I am 5 foot 3. Size 22.

I am hungry most the time. I wake up with a hunger, I have breakfast, cereal, or toast, or something else if I am on a proper "diet" (done them all - Atkins, Lighterlife, Slimming World, Weight Watchers, Cambridge, calorie counting, etc). By 9am I am hungry again. By 11am I am ready for lunch. By 1pm I am ready for more. I could go on but my obesity is not driven, in my opinion by greed (which would be eating way beyond which one is hungry) but by hunger. Genuine hunger for perfectly normal, even healthy food.

I know this is not the case with all obese people. But for quite a few it is.

I remember begging my Nanny to commence lunch proceedings at 11am one day. I was absolutely ravenous. I just wanted that sandwich so much. I could; have eaten 10 of them. I was 4 years old and had no idea what comfort eating was - I knew what tummy rumbles were, though.

My dad has never felt properly full. He stops eating, because he knows he'll get really really big if he doesn't, but he always has a knawing desire to eat. He exercises plenty of self control, which is why he is about 18 stone, not 27 stone, or 32 stone, or 36 stone and dead.

My mother has been on the dieting merry-go-round all her life (well, since she was 9). She has always been hungry. She doesn't actually eat particularly large portions, she's a bit of a picker, because she feels nauseous if she gets properly hungry due to medication she is on, but I can put way more away than her, though I try not to, as I am always on a diet. Being on a diet most the time and only breaking it when I can't stand it anymore is what keeps me at 17 and a half stone. I'd weigh more if I didn't exercise this level of self control. Its driven by fear for my health and vanity.

I recently sought weight loss surgery, looked at options, decided on either a Gastric Bypass or Sleeve Gastronectomy (gastric sleeve), and saw an eminent consultant, who approved me for surgery. The surgery will be funded privately by myself. We decided on the sleeve. The procedure cuts away the fundus part of the stomach, reducing your stomach size to 25% of what it was, but most importantly, removes the part of the stomach which is responsible for secreting Ghrelin , reducing that knawing, all consuming and unrelenting hunger that makes some obese people, well, obese. Its keyhole surgery under general anaesthetic.

I go on bike rides, walks, I do trampolining, dancing, the gym, enjoy the great outdoors, and running about with my kids. I am reasonably fit considering my size.

AIBU to think that obesity is not all about "greed", lack of self-denial (we are talking a lifetime, by the way, not a few weeks), "junk food", or "lack of exercise"? Is there anyone out there who thinks, actually, this is not my fault ?

[squeakytoy]

It is not normal to put on four or more stone in pregnancy.

In answer to your original question, as it is pointless trying to help you with your problems because you think you know all the answers. (You dont, by the way, or you wouldnt be at the point you are now). - unless there is a medical reason for your obesity, then yes, it is your fault that you cant lose weight. Being hungry is fine, you will not starve if you go two hours feeling hungry. You need to be able to stop yourself from eating every time you "feel hungry" because your obsession with food is the problem.. not genuine hunger.

[bizzieb33]

So what does a 'normal' person eat to stay at their weight?

I am 8 1/2 st & 5ft 4 in

Today I had

water
2 cups coffee
1/2 pt milk semi skimmed
2 slices of bread & butter, 3 thin slices of ham & lettuce
2 slices of chicken, mash potato, carrots, cabbage & leeks
2 squares of dark chocolate

This is a normal day & yes I do feel hungry a lot but I agree with Kate Moss...

[QOD]

fat prejudice is about the only prejudice still prevailing in the uk. you sound like you've thought it thru and self funding anyway. good luck with the rest of your life x

[PacificDogwood]

OP, YANBU.

There is a whole lot of things we do not understand/know about how appetite and wt gain are controlled. IME and IMO there ARE some people who will 'always' be skinny or fat. And a whole load of people who will maintain a healthy weight by paying a lot of attention to what/how much they eat and to the rest of their lifestyle.

And I do think that stomach-size-reduction procedures have their place and can make a huge difference (pardon the pun! ) to some people.
However, I also think that those people are in the minority. The vast majority of overweight/obese people take in too many calories for a variety of many and usually complex reasons.

Some people will not lose, or regain lost weight, after gastric banding etc because they figure out a way to keep taking vast amounts of calories by for instance liquidising chocolate bars etc - these people have a host of other problems.
This is one of the reasons why bariatric surgery is not freely available on the NHS: the cost of proper counselling before the surgery AND after, often lifelong, follow-up is prohibitive (please don't ask me to justify why there is a postcode lottery or why after you've become diabetic you may be eligible for a procedure which might have prevented you from becoming diabetic in the first place ).

OP, make sure you are having good post-op care if you are having this done privately. Also I recently learnt, you are advised to avoid conception for 2 years after bariatric surgery, due to increased fetal abnormalities? Sorry, I don't know the details on this one. Also you are likely to need nutritional supplements/vitamins for the rest of your life. You probably know that, sorry.

I have recently worn a size 14 pair of jeans for the first time in 10 years and I still weigh more than my 6ft 2'' brother who at 43 is still the same weight he was at the age of 16. I love him, but I hate him IYKWIM.

Good luck!

[squeakytoy]

Bizzie, that is about 700 calories. Definately not enough if you are still feeling hungry. You could easily fit some fruit and more protein into that without gaining weight. I dont see a breakfast there, which really is a vital part of the diet.

One of my worst mistakes was always missing breakfast. You need it to get your metabolism going, and your body fuelled up. You should at least try to have some porridge, or scrambled eggs perhaps.

[FleetwoodandFairycakes]

I saw this thread on active and so clicked. I don't want to come across as patronising/smug etc, but I find this subject interesting. OP I do think there must be something in this. I am hungry every 2 hours (approx - I graze and realised when you said every two hours that I also usually feel hungry about every 2 hours). I eat when I am hungry, and I am not overweight. In fact, my BMI is 19 (btw I just had to work that out - don't know it!). Today I ate at 9, 11ish, 1:30, 3ish, 5, 7 and am going to have dinner when my husband gets home. I didn't eat loads at those times but there was a fair amount of crap in there (not a great day for healthy eating ) - for lunch I had two slices of pizza and a pear.

There must be something to be said for eating small amounts regularly to keep the metabolism up - or something. I don't know tbh. But I do just find it interesting and I know that if I had to not eat when I felt hungry I would find it bloody hard. I do know that if I eat protein (I always have eggs for breakfast) I feel less hungry - or don't feel hungry again as soon. I also think I have a bit of hypoglycemia - I feel faint (and sometimes do), shaky, heart racing/beating hard, dizzy etc if I don't eat regularly. But I can't eat a lot in one go. Anyway I just wanted to say that I think there might be something about some people feeling more hungry and just burning more calories than others.

Good luck and I hope all goes well for you. And sorry - I know this isn't very helpful for you - just wanted to share really.

[acumenin]

I have to say I do sympathise. I went on some meds a few years ago that made me RAVENOUSLY hungry. I've never known anything like it. I felt absolutely tortured by my need to eat - like needing a wee in its urgency. I ate constantly. it took over my life - if I wasn't eating I was cooking.

I don't normally have anything like that level of hunger and can quite easily forget to eat (though I enjoy my food and eat quite a lot imo) one day. So, you know, I think that's just the luck of the draw, not a personal achievement. I just happen to be of a healthy weight through not a lot of effort. I mean, well done etc to everyone who is absolutely wracked with hunger and somehow resists it, but personally I could not do it!

[nuitdesetoiles]

I'm not really qualified to answer this in one sense as I'm not obese and luckily never have been...however my grandma and mum started off like me (slim) and as a result of children, a sedentary lifestyle yo yo dieting and the menopause both ended up either obese (grandma) or fairly overweight and unhealthy (mum). My grandma then had a series of strokes...and died as a result which is why I'm putting things in place now to prevent this happening to me. Basically shit loads of exercise including weight training to keep my metabolism up.

It really might be worth getting a personal trainer op, I got one after ds was born to regain my shape and tone up and learnt loads of resistance exercises I never knew existed. Cardio alone is crap it's the weights that really make the distance in combination with cardio.

re breakfast, if i eat first thing i'm ravenous by 10am so I leave breakfast until I get to work and that gets me through til lunchtime.

I do know a fair bit about eating disorders though and FWIW I think overeating to harmful levels probably iis probably emotionally driven the same way binging/purging and restricting is. If you overeat for emotional reasons then i think you deserve compassion and treatment not derision because in some ways it may not be a choice as such, more a compulsion.

[PacificDogwood]

bizzieb, that is not 'normal'. And not 'healthy' .

[jaquelinehyde]

NotMy I had the sleeve on August 10th so nearly 4 months ago and I already feel hunger.

Most of what I feel is an emotional hunger or a complusion to eat and you have to work so, so hard at over coming that. I'm still not perfect at it but luckily when I do give in my sleeve kicks into action limiting what and how much I can eat, so any damage done is massively limited.

I do feel real hunger, not as often as I used to obviously but if I have been busy all morning and not stopped to eat my tummy will rumble and and will feel in need of food. This started about a month ago.

The emotional hunger began as soon as I was over the operation which took a good month.


I had months of therapy leading up to the operation and can honestly say without it I would be feeling lost right now. It made me realise how much work this was going to take and gave me additional tools to use alongside my surgery.

The weight is coming off but it is not easy at all. Oh and be prepared for your hair to fall out. Mine has been coming out for a few weeks now and shows no signs of stopping. Quite a few people I met whilst in therapy and having the op are also experiencing hair loss and a couple of them are having second operations done urgently as their stomach's are too narrow and they need them to be widened otherwise they are unable to eat without being sick.

Lots and lots that you need to be aware of, I'm sure your surgeon has discussed all of this with you anyway, but please believe me when I say the hunger does not go away forever.

[ChippingInNeedsSleep]

Hec - thank you for that. You may remember I was a right pain in the arse interested when you had the sleeve done. I didn't realise you had done so well since then - congratulations! :) Feel free to stop answering when you've had enough of me ... I totally understand what you are saying about if you could stop eating when you'd only eaten a little, you wouldn't need help (only too well unfortunately!), but what is it about the sleeve that stops you eating more? (do you throw up or something?). It seems like it takes just as much willpower after the sleeve as it does before ... if not more, so I don't really understand how the sleeve is helping. I guess I always thought that the sleeve/band stopped you feeling hungry (such a small stomach you could be sated without eating many calories).

Have you had any success with counselling for your emotional issues? I know my issues are a combination medical & emotional. I can't afford counselling - but would be interested in any books you have felt have helped?

SkivingAgain - do you know, or would you be able to find out, where one would be able to get this virtual gastric band (if one was prepared to pay privately)?

Squeaky & PD - well done!!

[KittyAnne]

I would love to eat whatever I wanted, when I wanted. I can't, because I would get really fat. So I don't. And there you are.

There's nothing wrong with going hungry for a few hours.

Personally I think the NHS has better thinks to spend its cash on than bypassing gastric systems. I know there are arguments for long term costs but it still pisses me off that one operation could buy about 400 wheelchairs or pay a nurse's salary for the best part of one year.

[gomez]

Not sure if it is still available but there was a 30min show on Radio 4 called simply The Calorie. Was enlightining? Couple of propositions from that show:

What the feck is a calorie?

Where did the oft stated 'fact' that 3500 calories = 1 pound fat come from?
[13 official UK organisations involved in weight management who quote this were challenged to provide a source. None could provide a credible, scientific source.]

2000 'calories' from protein, vegetables, fruit and natural carb will not make you fat: 2000 calories from ready meals, processed foods and refined carbs will. Because the body doesn't have a purpose for many of those 'artificial' food stuffs.

Was a blardy good show if you can listen again.

[A1980]

I would love to eat whatever I wanted, when I wanted. I can't, because I would get really fat. So I don't. And there you are.

Here here! It's common sense. I also think people delude themselves about how much they eat. In order to maintain a weight of 17.5 stone (morbidly obese) you would have to eat over 2500 calories a day and sit on ass all day.

When I've had a bad week, I barely notice it on the scales. For example, I define a bad weke as going for dinner once or twice, eating chocolate and sweets or a cake on a few days, having a huge latte or two out at the weekend and only going to the gym once or twice. My weight barely go's up 1lb when I do that. So how much must you eat to get to a weight of 17 stone and maintain it? A hell of a lot.

[Sidge]

I think you're rather misguided if you believe that hunger originates entirely in the stomach due to ghrelin production.

The brain plays a rather large part as well.

Hence why my 7 year old daughter with Prader-Willi Syndrome can't be cured with a partial gastrectomy.

[ChippingInNeedsSleep]

JacquelineHyde - how do you feel about having had the sleeve done? Are you pleased you did or do you think you could have achieved what you have achieved with the support/counselling you have had alongside it, without the actual surgery. Does it make you throw up if you eat too much?

[ChippingInNeedsSleep]

Kladd - can you answer what is probably a very ignorant question? How does your autism affect your weight/ability to lose weight?

[mummyosaurus]

I've had a hypnoband gastric band (a hypnotic Gastric band). My starting BMI was about 37. A lifelong over eater / serial dieter, I too was always hungry (have PCOS which doesn't help).

So far, so good. Lost 10 lbs in 5 weeks.

Am now trying to eat an alkaline diet, which is getting easier. But I am not counting points calories or syns, just eating smaller portions and not snacking as much.

It has helped me address the emotional eating, and it is lovely to be free of "dieting"

Good luck

[eurochick]

I eat more than Bizzie, but still feel hungry regularly. A typical day for me goes something like this:

Wake up feeling ravenous
Bowl of museli
Occasionally some fruit juice but not every day
Walk around 30 mins as part of commute to work
By 11am feel ravenous
Eat piece of fruit or small cereal bar (around 100 cals)
By 12.30 feel hungry
Eat lunch, typically some soup, some brown bread and a fruit salad, plus a couple of squares of good chocolate; occasionally something more substantial like a burrito or curry from a lunch place (tyically if I have an evening event and will probably miss dinner)
Mid afternoon, feel hungry
Eat cereal bar or fruit (whatever I didn't have in the morning); occasionally graze on cake or chocolates someone has brought into the office
Walk 20-30 mins as part of commute
By 7pm on way home am very hungry again
Have dinner - something like curry, stir fry, soup, stew, pasta and sauce, all made from scratch either on the night or earlier and frozen; a couple of nights a week go to gym and get home too late for proper food so just have a couple of crackers and cheese with salad.

My BMI is around 21-22 and has been for a long time. I exercise but not as much as I would like as work gets in the way. I walk as part of my commute to work, go to the gym when I can (this has slipped recently, must get back into it) and run once a week at the weekend.

Feeling hungry is normal and not harmful.

[Snowinsummer]

Hi,
I've lost 4 stone since May. My BIM was around 33 but now its 23.9. I still want to, ideally, lose another 26 lbs as that's the weight I feel best at. This was done the hard way, as others have said, by eating less & really thinking about my food choices (used my fitness pal), and moving around more, either by doing the 30DS or just walking. Originally I put on weight as I was feeling depressed (my middle child has sn and at times it's been really hard), my solution was to have a biscuit. Instant mood brightener, with the sugar & all that, but the feeling doesn't last & then you need another... It was getting to the point where I had to graze all the time as if I didn't I'd get shaky, my head felt all fuzzy like I was hungover & couldn't think. My health was really poor and I got very sick with bronchitus in April & knew that I wouldn't reach old bones unless I did something about it. I sought the help of a nutritional therapist & now take 7 different vits a day and they have made such a difference to my life. I had something called Metabolic Syndrome or Syndrome X. I still have it, but its manageable (bit worse around the time of the month) with chromium and magnesium/calcium supplements, amongst others. I eat a lot of protein & eat much less carbs and try to avoid bread etc which doesn't fill me up at all. Brown, organic shortgrain rice is my carb of choice nowadays. I also eat a lot of hm veg soups with lentils in. In addition, I don't buy anything low fat - just eat less of it. I avoid anything artificial, like aspartame, like the plague. I would never have any sort of surgery myself. I think that you need help, but surgery won't be the answer longterm. There's obviously a problem so maybe you need to delve a bit deeper in order to work out your solution. I suspect you're nutritionally deficient, and are eating the wrong sort of foods in too large a quantity (you'll need to weigh everything to see) and possibly at the wrong time of day as well. You also need to do 30mins exercise preferrably daily or least 3 times a week. Everyone has time for this. Occasionally I'll do it really late, say around 11.00pm as that's the first slot of time I've had. 30DS takes just 20 mins. Just my opinion, but I really think the long term risks of the operation are not known and it's just the sticking plaster approach. If you can sort it out without resorting to surgery, the longterm outlook must be so much better. Oh yes and I'm lucky as as have no signifcant stretchmarks & currently(!) no loose skin fingers crossed. Goodluck.

[ChippingInNeedsSleep]

snow - congratulations!!! How many visits did you make to the nutritional therapist? How much did it cost? How did you find her/him?

[Kladdkaka]

Kladd - can you answer what is probably a very ignorant question? How does your autism affect your weight/ability to lose weight?

I'll try and this is only how it affect me. There are various issues. My eating patterns are chaotic. I become stuck in what I'm doing and don't eat until hunger overwhealms me and then I can't stop eating until I'm sick. At my very worst I didn't think to eat for so long that my periods stopped.

I also don't hear what my body tells me until it's screaming at me and even then I don't know what it's telling me. For example, I can't distinguish between feeling hungry, thirsty, anxious, excited, IBS symptoms etc. They're all just feel like something going on in my stomach. (I completely ignored labour pains for 15 hours too because of not recognising the change in what was going on inside)

I also get fixated on the sensory stimulation of certain foods. It could be how they feel or how they taste. Once it was lettuce with mayonnaise, that's literally all I ate for 6 months or so because of the taste. Another time it was the texture St.Ivel gold. I would actually eat this margarine by the tub full with a spoon. Gummy bears not chewed just swallowed whole create a weird sensory feeling at the back of the throat. At the moment I'm struggling with ryvita type crackers and the feeling they create on the gums.

And then there's a whole mountain of other stuff to do with organisation, planning, shopping and food storage and order and routines and obsessions and rules. For example, I can't choose between the overwhealming selection of cereal so I'll buy a box of each. Then I'll get in a panic because I know I shouldn't have 50 boxes of cereal in the house. So then I'll eat nothing but cereal all day every day to make the boxes go away. I couldn't possibly throw them away because that breaks the rule about being wasteful and that creates an even bigger panic.

On the bright side, my cellar looks like Asda with a room full of shelves all neatly stocked with the jars and cans perfectly lined up. I certainly won't go hungry when zombie armeggedon comes.

[Kladdkaka]

Sorry that was a bit long.

[Snowinsummer]

Hi Chipping! My nutritional therapist is the mother of a good friend. I went 3 times I think, but now as I think I know what I am doing, I just email if I have any queries. I don't know how much it costs, as I was done foc, but it's not that much & has literally saved my life. I had, in my head, been planning what would happen if I had a heart attack or worse - a terrible thing to say, but it was on my mind when I fell asleep & when I woke in the morning. The worry really weighed me down & I felt I couldn't tell anyone about my fears as they would just tell me to lose weight, but as I had all these terrible symptoms I thought I couldn't cut back what I was eating. The chromium, especially, made an incredible difference in just 2 days. I noticed if I forgot to take it. The magnesium is like a rocket boost (but the one I take has calcium with it, otherwise I notice my blood-sugar swings start again). Can't recommend it enough. My therapist's name is Isabella Perry. You can google her & find the website. GO for it!!