to hate the way my dp talks to me and expect him to change after all these years?

[horsetowater]

DP has a snappy bossy way of speaking, he doesn't listen, goes off on a tangent, doesn't make himself clear all of which make communication extremely difficult.

After 25 years together I have had enough. We have just been to counselling and the only thing it changed was that he showed me a little more deference but reverts to type if there is any kind of misunderstanding or conflict.

Now with anyone else, if there's a problem / conflict / disagreement, you continue to talk until a compromise is reached. But it's all or nothing with him. I've been very clear with him about how painful it is when he speaks like this but nothing has changed.

I've looked into all the narcissistic emotional abuse books and he does fit a lot of the symptoms and it would be lovely to say bye-bye and get on with a new life. But in every other sense is is a very good man - hard working, generous, creative, practical, doting father, etc etc. And that part is so hard to disentangle myself from. I still love him but I can no longer take the way he talks as it wears me down.

I know quite a few people with husbands like this, snappy and bossy and wonder whether this is just a man thing? I put up with it all these years because I was strong. But now I'm not any more and it's getting in the way of bringing up the kids. Communication has to be good where kids are involved, there's no room for error.

OK I'm naiive to think he can change this, but AIBU?

YABU to expect someone to change character if it's been explained that what they do is upsetting & if you've gone to the lengths of counselling, but they carry on regardless. They rarely do. Do other people find your husband abrasive and belligerent? Is he capable of being charming with everyone else but snappy and bossy at home? If a complete stranger spoke to you the way he speaks to you, would you stand there and take it or would you object? If he reserves his worst behaviour for you and is nice as pie to others then that would say to me that something is badly wrong.

Love is a two-way street. If you feel ground down by the way you're treated it's not a two-way street, it's a form bullying. And then it actually doesn't matter how creative, practical or generous someone is. Hope you find happiness.

I had this but it took me 29 years of marriage to do something about it. I am soooo much happier and more content.

It's like being half in love. And he is very loveable in very many ways. I am terrified of leaving because it will be like losing a close friend. How did you manage it Mabel?

Have you tried ignoring and totally blanking him when he does this? Tell him you're only prepared to communicate when he can learn to speak to you properly? If a two year old was doing it, this is what you'd do.

Have you tried hanging up on him (on phone) or walking away when he does this? Refuse to speak to him until he can speak reasonably. He may lose his temper - ignore until he realises you will only speak to him when he can calm down and speak reasonably. Sorry your going through this op stay strong

Oh yes, I've tried everything - walk away, which is what he wants most of the time. He'd rather not deal with a conflict so acts up so that I walk away. I've given him lots of ultimatums, said that it hurts, told him that it's not acceptable. If I could I would sit him on the naughty step for 54 minutes (one for each year)!

For a long time I completely disengaged, expected nothing from him and just got on with doing everything at home but he's been more involved recently and that's when it goes wrong.

I think we will just have to seperate but will always have to be connected through work and through dcs. I can't bear for him to touch me now, the hurt is that deep. It's that drip drip effect of years of negativity and bad communication that has finally worn me out.

I need to save myself now but he loves me so much it is very hard to push him away.

He sounds like a horrible person to live with. No, it is not normal or given, most men do not treat their partner like that.
Have you been on the relationships board, there is good advice to be had there?

It sounds like you're in a real conflict.

You love him, he loves you, he talks to you like shit, you can't stand him touching you.

Do you really love him? Or is it just being scared of going it alone?

I can imagine that even if it's bad it's difficult to make the break because it's also about what you've had together in the past.

But this isn't just an argument with you wanting to leave in the heat of the moment, you've given him every chance to give you the love and care you deserve and he seems unwilling/unlikely to change.

If you just do little bits and bobs getting things together towards leaving him (without letting him know) maybe it won't be so stressful? You'll be doing something about your situation at your own speed, but can change your mind if you don't feel the time's right.

Thanks Mos, I have been on the relationships board, but haven't been on for a while as we did counselling for 8 weeks as a last resort before separating. I didn't want to get influenced by coming on here - no offence to anyone. I know everything there is to know about Lundy Bancroft!

This is partly about me questioning whether I'm acting the victim. I do that quite a lot and it's not very grown up. I've stopped talking to friends about it because it's been going on so long and it's getting boring. So over the next few days I will be making the decision on whether to leave or stay.

I am very dependent on him, and he is on me - which is normal in a long term relationship as your roles are more seperate. But that makes it harder.

I think separating for a while might be just the thing. It would give you a much needed break from him, and may also be the final "slap in the face" he needs. If he doesn't stop talking to you like this after you've kicked him out, then he never will.

My recommendations:

Step 1: Book yourself a nice holiday away from DP & kids, so you have some alone time to prepare yourself for the nastiness of kicking him out when you get back, and to make sure it's what you really want to do.

Step 2: Come home and kick him out.

Step 3. Sit back, be strong, and see if he changes. Give yourself a time limit. If he's shown great improvement in say, 6 months or one year, then consider taking him back (if you still love him and want to touch him again), if he hasn't, or if you find you don't love him anymore, proceed with a divorce.

I had this too in the final couple of years of 17 years together along with constant low level criticism and "jokes" at my expense

I knew it was going on but didnt want our marriage to end and subconsciously made excuses for him and why I dont know but I loved him too

He left me and one of the first things that was a breath of fresh air was not having someone in my life speaking to me the way he did. I quickly woke up to just how awful he had been to me and actually the man I was in love with had long gone and his way of speaking/behaving was actually bullying and abusive.

Two years down the line the memories recede but reading this thread brings it back , actually I had woken up feeling a bit sorry for myself today so this has made me think thank god thats not me anymore

Leave him YANBU

After such a long time I'd imagine you're just used to having him around and find it hard to imagine a life on your own. No one should speak to you that way, especially if it wears you down so much. It sounds to me like you've done everything you can to try to make things better and I'd imagine after all that and after all this time nothing is going to change. It's a hard thing to face up to, but I'm sure once you get free of him the main thing you'll feel is relief.

Frankly it sounds horrid, he won't change and your choices are either to lump it or leave him. I would encourage you to start disentangling from him. I know it isn't easy and I never thought I'd be encouraging someone to break up their marriage but jesus, life is short, don't give it up to a bully. It may seem terrifying but you are actually living the nightmare, once you break away you will be amazed by how much more energy you have. You sound like a lovely person who is very capable, you are bound to do very well on your own.

Glad you have had help talking this through, but 8 weeks seems a short time. Did it help in other areas?

Would individual counselling help for you? Not that you need to change but it could teach you techniques of coping in a positive way, to build up your emotional strength again

Do you have anything in your life that gives you joy other than the kids?

Angel yes, I have other things, I'm retraining and I have a hobby group of very supportive (but busy) women. Individual counselling is a good idea, I shall see the doctor to see if I can get some.

tammy thanks, inspiring post. I have disentangled but got re-entangled recently, in terms of expecting help with dcs and home etc. But I can manage fine without him in a practical sense, I'll work on that again.

I agree with gyspycat - walking away might be what he needs to really hear what you are saying.

For 16 years you have given 'ultimatums'. And nothing changed. Well, an ultimatum is only an ultimatum if you follow through. For 16 years he has learned that you'll take it.

If you walk, then he knows that this is different. If he loves you as much as you say, then he will wake up and do what needs to be done.

Dana yes, I realise he won't change. The last session from the counsellor hinged on 'what if he doesn't change?'. I've been tearing my hair out trying to think a way we can make it bearable.

This morning we had a long talk about making plans which I have been asking him to do for the last 4 years in particular. He avoids commitment bigtime.

In a nutshell we have decided to sell the house which will give us the opportunity to split (house owned 5050) and my Mum says I can stay with her for a while before we get a new place. This would be the time for going separate ways and keeping it amicable. I think he sees this but is hoping I'll tag along with him on his random route through life. Of course the conversation that I thought was going somewhere ended with him taking offense at something I said (can't even remember what - I think I've got to the stage of blocking it out?) and launching a verbal attack.

So we are separating assets so that's a start.

gypsycat I love your 3-step plan - you should write a book!

At Easter I asked him to read up about emotional abuse. In June he had read one page and used it against me. In July he was made redundant, failed to discuss anything with me (he's the only breadwinner atm) and then in August I undertook step 1 and took a weekend away. After that I came back and did Step 2 and he convinced me of the counsellor - his last chance. I let him take the lead.

Although he has been 'trying' fundamentally nothing has changed (of course I've been changing my behaviour for years to accommodate his) and this morning I asked him an innocent question about the curtains and he spoke to me like a dog. I told him that if he speaks to me like that again he can eff off, then dd2 ran off screaming 'don't ever talk to daddy like that again!' I don't think he heard what he said. I don't normally react like that but I'm past caring. He apologised after making me apologise first (????).

(I don't think SHE heard what he said).

Hecate I have already walked, but he followed and begged and pleaded and I gave him a chance. Nothing has changed since then and that was 5 years ago (I think). But time flies when you have dcs, you just hope from one duty to the next and don't stop to take stock. I'm taking stock now and frankly there ain't much cattle in the paddock/beans on the shelf/cash in the attic.

"he loves me so much it is very hard to push him away."

If this is how he treats someone he loves I'd hate to see him around someone he can't stand.

You've been a saint, op and you deserve so much more respect than this.

Your dd will be aware of how he's speaking to you and it sounds as though she's losing respect for you as well There's also a risk that she'll get involved with men like that when she gets older. I think you're all at risk of being damaged by this man and you need to get out.

Seems like I need to have a think.

Good luck op.

It really doesn't sound like he's going to change horsetowater, and it sounds like you are emotionally exhausted (with good reason) which is why I think you really need to take some time somewhere for yourself before making this huge step. You need time to get yourself emotionally prepared and you won't be able to do that around DP & the kids. Even a weekend away might give you the strength you need. Good luck. :)

It's a crappy situation but you are taking big steps to make changes. Selling the house is a biggy, good luck with that. Stay focused on the end result no matter what unpleasantness is hurled at you during the process. You will sell, you will move on (literally), you won't have to listen to him bark at you any more (well, not much anyway) and it'll free you up for a happier existence.
It was my dd, age 5, who brought home to me the true state of my marriage - crying - "I think daddy needs to live somewhere else we don't have to listen to him shouting all the time".