To wonder how the HELL some people get into university?

[SayYuleNowSayWhipTheReindeer]

I'm currently doing a degree as a mature student alongside work, and am just amazed at the stupidity lack of knowledge some of my fellow students have. For instance, nearly all of them - on a fecking ENGLISH LANGUAGE degree course - mix up "your" and you're", "there" and "their", and use the spelling "definately".

I overheard a conversation today that involved several students talking about how they didn't know their times tables above 5 or 6.

AIBU to seriously wonder if it's even worth doing a degree if this is the standard they're allowing in at the moment?

LRD, maths is a huge subject. Look at teh syllabus, look at teh National Curriculum. Every topic on that syllabus is part of maths, and arithmetic is at teh core of all mathematics. It's important because otherwise one day its importance will be downplayed and cooking lasagnas may be introduced instead of learning the basics.

I would have thought that understanding sentences and being able to speak and write them was the basis of English literature. In the same way, arithmetic is the basis of maths.

'The axioms are, but arithmetic in general is surely just an ancillary skill?'

When humans first began learning mathematics, they started with eth abstarct concept of numbers and counting. It was only much later that axioms came into it. Children learn maths starting from arithmetic just like the early humans first did.

But we obviously disagree about arithmetic's place at the core of mathematics.

I don't agree.

I think some things are taught under particular subject headings at school because it is convenient, and this does not go to the definition of the academic subject.

'I would have thought that understanding sentences and being able to speak and write them was the basis of English literature. In the same way, arithmetic is the basis of maths.'

Agree, MillyR. You only need to look at what is taught in schools to see what forms teh basis of maths and English.

Do we really know what humans did when they were first learning? It's not part of recorded history as far as I know.

It's worth noting that a lot of early maths is based on the visual, not on arithmetic as we now look at it. The zero (fairly important concept in arithmetic) is a really late addition to Western understanding.

'I don't agree.'

OK, we all see things differently

Um ... that does move the goalposts a bit. I was arguing against spelling as 'part of English' in the same way arithmetic is, you'd argue 'part of maths'. That is not the same as 'understanding sentences and being able to speak and write them'.

Cross-posted - yes, fair enough, we see things differently.

I was thinking the opposite LRD! I was thinking that the zero thing showed how mathematical concepts have developed together, so arithmetic can't be separated from the other areas of maths, and so is a part of maths.

But I suspect categories of knowledge is part of philosophy (which also developed from/with maths) and is almost as much of a dark art to me as English literature.

LRD, yes I was putting the sentence argument forward as a new argument. I didn't agree with the spelling example.

'The zero (fairly important concept in arithmetic) is a really late addition to Western understanding.'

That is what we are told. I personally don't believe it. Remember that we only have fragments left of the knowledge of the Ancient Greeks etc. They were dealing with irrational numbers and extremely complicated maths. I find it inconceivable that they weren't aware of teh concept of 0, which would be needed to understand bases. It doesn't get more basic and brilliant than 0's and 1's and I don't believe that tehy didn't know that.

Ah, you could have a point there. I think we are getting into philosophy which does just confuse me.

I will admit I was mostly interested in spelling being part of English, because being someone who doesn't spell especially well (I have been googling dictionaries frantically on this thread and I'm sure there are some mistakes anyway), I do feel strongly that people should know it's not something essential as long as you're prepared to put in a little work to circumvent the prpblem.

From a friends husband
Trainee (year 1) teaching student.
"What's a plural ?"

Husband went to see head of year about this, querying how this person actually got onto course and basically got reprimanded for possibly causing student to leave negative feedback.

'But I suspect categories of knowledge is part of philosophy (which also developed from/with maths)'

Agree with that. Counting and teh abstarct concept of numbers is also fundamental to philosophical thinking. The Ancient Greeks were also great philosphers which is why I also find it hard to believe that they never thought of teh concept of nothing and 0.

I don't know about the Ancient Greeks and you may well be right there. I don't believe 0 was part of standard understanding for medieval people though. You can look at the way they do calcualtions to see they struggle because they don't have the concept.

Bah, I preferred it when we were bitching about students and their bad emailing!

Yes, it is getting into philosophy which is another great art of human reasoning, but is off topic.

' I don't believe 0 was part of standard understanding for medieval people though.'

Yes, we went through teh Dark Ages, where lots of knowledge was supposedly lost. But we know that the Church had access to the works of Plato and Aristotle etc., so a small percentage of teh population had access to knowledge that was denied to the majority.

This may be the point where I observe that when students refer to the 'Dark Ages', I threaten to chuck them off the course ...

I'm 20 and in my second year at a Russell group uni - I'm not the biggest brainbox ever but I am constantly amazed at people on my course writing of instead of have, brought instead of bought, mixing up their/there/they're and even to/too/two. This isn't even on Facebook/the Internet, where you might sort of understand them letting their English slip, but in academic essays and articles they write as part of the practical modules of our journalism course.

I feel about 80 when I moan about how it's BOUGHT and not bloody BROUGHT

Yes I don't know enough about the so-called Dark Ages

I haven't read the whole thread, because I got a bit lost with all the philosophy!

But I sometimes despair about my team at work because they lack such a lot of general knowledge. They've all got degrees. One of them got her calculator out the other day to divide £3,450 by 10. And another didn't know what 'public sector' meant. Despite her parents both being teachers.

On a similar note, I overheard two students on my train the other day, debating whether all the shops in Central London would be closed because of the strikes. They agreed they probably would be because "it's everyone, man. Everyone's on strike." Then they had a rant that the trains had better be running because it would be a nightmare if they couldn't get to uni that day. I didn't have the heart to tell them their lecturers would probably be striking.

I've officially turned into an old woman.

Oh, no, I wasn't trying to take a shot at your knowledge claig, it just happens to be one of my bug bears ... that and 'well I don't think this text is very interesting because after all they weren't very bright back then were they'?

journoem, that is a shocking indictment of our education system and how standards have slipped. I don't blame the students, I blame their schools.