to DRAG the DCs out of bed at 4.00am tomorrow morning?

[BlessYouToo]

It is probably a bit horrid but I am at the end of my tether.

I have DSs aged 9 and 10 and they will not bloody go to sleep. I have been tearing my hair out now for nigh on 4 years!! Normal routine is bath at around 7.30, snack and a glass of milk, faff about for ages then bed (after shouting at them to go 10 million times) at around 8.30. Then the fun begins.

I will hear them walking around, jumping around, having full on conversations that turn into shouting at each other after being told numerous times to GO TO SLEEP, one or the other will then come down to tell on the other one/tell us important stuff that they forgot to tell us etc. I do not expect them to go straight to sleep but do not expect to hear them until 11.30pm!! They do not have a TV in their room (that went long ago, only books).

Then at 7.00am when they are supposed to get up, they don't want to so cue laying around without getting dressed/washed/whatever they are supposed to do, terrible attitudes and arguments all round. I know damn well it is affecting their school work and their attitudes in general.

I am so sick of it and we have tried everything -separate rooms (makes no difference) staggered bedtimes (which do not work as the one that's supposed to be asleep won't be and they will then start again), bribes, threats of being locked in the car to sleep etc etc. They do out of school activities and are generally busy.

It has occurred to me as a last resort, to get them up so early that they are knackered all day and so will then therefore want to sleep at a reasonable time and I will gradually bring the wakeup time forward to around 6-6.30 when I usually get up anyway. They are still awake now so will get no more than 5 hours sleep tonight.

DH thinks it will be cruel, is it??

Stagger bedtimes to give one chance to get relaxed before the other goes up. Any privileges the next day are dependent on staying in their beds and going to sleep without a fuss. Agree with the post about removing lightbulbs, if needs be - DS1's sleep difficulties are related to his ASD/ADHD, but, if he's having a bouncy or screamy night, flicking the appropriate switch on the circuit breaker to disable the upstairs lights works wonders, even though he spends a good while ranting about the power cut.

One down, one to go + DD - looks like she'll be getting up with us too!

Have two boys 23 and18. They never went to bed that early. I'd put them up at half eight with milk and biscuits. Get them a tv and tell them to put a film on and turn the light off at nine. They are not babies. Don't treat them like ones. They need time to burn off energy, when kids come home from school they have behaved all day they have to let off steam and wind down.

OK - crossposted, but let DS1 get to bed first. If DS2 needs a later bedtime and less sleep, let him have it. He might change his mind after a while and DS1 will, in the meantime, get a chance to go to sleep when he's ready and build up a healthier sleep pattern.

I have found that withdrawing activities (or even the mere threat of that) is much more effective than withdrawing things like TV/playstation/toys. If you state before bed, 'you need to be alert tomorrow to go to football, if you don't go to sleep by X/are making noises after X then you won't go to football', you will only have to follow through once or twice for them to start to weigh up the consequences of misbehaving.

Or not going to school disco/mate's house/birthday event. Sounds severe, but it's better than putting up with that performance (and I am sympathetic, I do know how it can slide later and later, with more and more fussing and you think 'how did we get into this?')

Ooo you poor thing OP, the little buggers!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry for you, maybe a manic, hysterical laughter? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I used to go swimming 3 nights a week, brownies another night, and a walk with my dad and the dog on the nights I didnt have another activity.. so I was always fairly tired by bedtime, and I was happy to just read for a while, then sleep.

Are they doing anything after school to burn off any energy?

DD sneaks downstairs to nick biscuits, too.
Obviously I punish her if I catch her, but she's bloody canny & sneaky about it & I go to bed before her.
We have a lock on the biscuit cupboard (sigh).

I don't think depriving them of sleep will work. You are the parent. Assert yourself. I would say that this is stopping right here and now. I would change things round. They can have showers in the morning. They do their own thing till 8.45pm when they get ready for bed. From 9pm there will be silence, nothing else is even vaguely acceptable.

Discipline is most definitely an issue but I have run out of ideas. They honestly are not bothered about missing stuff. Cinema was cancelled this afternoon because homework was not done this morning (off school due to strike) and they still have not finished it (due Friday). They were up and down from the table where they were supposed to sit and do it and I will not stand over them any more!

I know on the rare occasion that they sleep before 10.00pm they are much more receptive the next day. Both have issues at school with regards to concentration and are not doing as well as they could, not to mention behaviour and tantrums at home.

With DD it's bad temper & sniping at other people, as well as blunt defiance "You can't make me!!" attitude, those are main signs of sleep deprivation. (sigh)
I generally care more about her going to activities than she does, so that one wouldn't work for us, either.

We also found putting 'official' bedtime a little later helped too.It is on the understanding that they go to bed at the new time with no delaying tactics whatsoever and that they settle down.OK they may not go to sleep straight away but they are expected to be in bed quietly.Any messing about means bedtime returns to the 'old' earlier time.

OK it is a bit of a compromise but although they may not be going to bed at the time you like,if they settle consistently at a halfway reasonable time its got to be better than messing about until silly o clock.I reckon it also gave mine the sense of a small victory in a funny way.I think they feel they've gained something and are reluctant to lose that new found freedom

ABSOLUTELY NO BLOODY FEAR AT ALL and I can shriek like a mad woman! I am going mental believe me. It has been going on too fecking long.

You seriously think we should put the TV back in? We took it out because we found DS1 watching it at 3.00am one night!

I think the problem is there are two of them, very close in age, and very able to wind each other up. They probably didn't care about the cinema today as they'd had so much fun and attention keeping you occupied with their homework, and essentially messing about together.

I would divide and conquer, separate rooms for homework for example, separate rooms for sleeping (if poss, say one in your room til they learn to behave).

I have found when my two are awful and silly together like this, no threats work, they are in their own world of silliness. But separating them does work!

Hardgoing you are so right!They get beyond any reasoning don't they?

7.30 bath is too early I think, they aren't toddlers any longer and it gives them too much time to muck about.

Quick shower before dinner, and then they can have a couple of hours to do as they please before bed.
In bed and quiet at 9pm, lights out at 9.30pm.

Don't discuss, don't engage. Tell them how it will be - frogmarch then to their room if necessary.

I can think of two ways to go about this. Split them up as they are winding each other up. Keep the elder one downstairs with you until the other has gone quietly to bed. Make it boring downstairs. When the younger one is settled, send the other one up. If they then kick off, take the other one downstairs again. It will remove the younger one's playmate and the older one's incentive to mess around once in bed if he will then be put in the kitchen again.

Or you could treat them as older children, discuss the problem with them, negotiate an agreed bedtime routine and lights out time with them and a reward if they stick to it - 'As we will all be well rested, we can do X at the weekend' sort of thing.

What are they eating in the evenings? Too much sugar, not enough and they are actually still hungry?

If they are mucking about at meals then make one stand in the hall while the other eats and vice-versa. No treats, no pudding.

Where is your DH in all this? Does he discipline them?

See this is why my mother had it right (I think!).. because I did fear a smacked backside. It stung.

Ergo, when I was warned that if I carried on behaving badly, I would get a wallop, I reconsidered my behaviour. My mother rarely had to carry it out, but I had no doubt whatsoever that had I continued to defy her, she would have done. That to me is what smacking should be about.... not needing to do it!

I know there will be people who say that is wrong because it is making the child fear being smacked.... erm yes, thats the whole point of it!

Parents are there to be in charge. If the "you cant make me" attitude isnt nipped in the bud sharpish, you are in for a hell of a bad time during the teenage years.

squeaky I remember the thudding of Mums feet coming up the stairs and hiding under the covers,and we knew what was coming next.......

But we were little toads and we still insisted on doing it again......

Ali - they eat a hot school dinner, then toast & fruit or similar when they get in, dinner at 6 ish with dessert (fruit pie/bananas & custard etc) then milk and biscuit before bed. Not great but not terrible. They are always ravenous. Of course DS2 would be hungry at 11pm when he last ate at 8pm and has been jumping around since then, that's why he should have gone to bloody sleep before that. They do mess about at meal times so standing one in the hall is a good idea.

DH is very good with them but they have never feared him either. He does a very good resounding boomy loud shout as well. He has worked very long hours/away since they were born so was not around a lot but since last year is around a lot as he changed job.

The fact there is 2 of them is the main problem. Will read through this thread again tomorrow, bed now so I can get up early! Thanks for all your responses.

OOOhh I would love to give them a resounding stinging slap quite often as my mum did me. DS2 has before threatened to tell his teacher we are 'horrible' to him though (little sod darling) so that rather puts me off!

I have two ds's sharing a room, with no space anywhere to separate them. My DS1 is 9.7yo and DS2 is 8yo. There is NO WAY they would come downstairs and mess about like that after bedtime. But my two boys do have a much later bedtime. They both go to bed at 9pm on a school night. DS1 falls asleep pretty quickly, DS2 takes about an hour to sleep. But they are to lie in bed and be quiet or they will lose a privelidge.

The thing that works best for DS1 is the threat of losing his dsi, I did it so that he lost a day's screen time for each 20 minutes it took him to stop messing about. I only had to do it once for him to see I meant it, so he now stops at the warning. For DS2, it is losing TV time, again, a days TV time lost for every 20 minutes messing about. It took more than once with DS2, but he has learnt to stay in bed lying down quietly at bedtime, and to read in his head in the mornings. (DS2 is an early riser as well as late to sleep) .

If my 13yo DD messes around, the threat of losing her mobile usually works.