to DRAG the DCs out of bed at 4.00am tomorrow morning?

[BlessYouToo]

It is probably a bit horrid but I am at the end of my tether.

I have DSs aged 9 and 10 and they will not bloody go to sleep. I have been tearing my hair out now for nigh on 4 years!! Normal routine is bath at around 7.30, snack and a glass of milk, faff about for ages then bed (after shouting at them to go 10 million times) at around 8.30. Then the fun begins.

I will hear them walking around, jumping around, having full on conversations that turn into shouting at each other after being told numerous times to GO TO SLEEP, one or the other will then come down to tell on the other one/tell us important stuff that they forgot to tell us etc. I do not expect them to go straight to sleep but do not expect to hear them until 11.30pm!! They do not have a TV in their room (that went long ago, only books).

Then at 7.00am when they are supposed to get up, they don't want to so cue laying around without getting dressed/washed/whatever they are supposed to do, terrible attitudes and arguments all round. I know damn well it is affecting their school work and their attitudes in general.

I am so sick of it and we have tried everything -separate rooms (makes no difference) staggered bedtimes (which do not work as the one that's supposed to be asleep won't be and they will then start again), bribes, threats of being locked in the car to sleep etc etc. They do out of school activities and are generally busy.

It has occurred to me as a last resort, to get them up so early that they are knackered all day and so will then therefore want to sleep at a reasonable time and I will gradually bring the wakeup time forward to around 6-6.30 when I usually get up anyway. They are still awake now so will get no more than 5 hours sleep tonight.

DH thinks it will be cruel, is it??

[lashingsofbingeinghere]

Their body clocks need to be re-set.

No TV or lights in the room as this tells the brain to wake up/stay awake.


I would try a much later bedtime with an earlier start - 9.30 is still 2 hours before you say they normally settle down. I would start with 10.30 unless they seem very tired before that, in which case trust your instincts and send them up to bed earlier.

If they only need 8 hours sleep, say, then you will still be juggling with a 10pm-6pm sleep schedule, or 11pm-7pm. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

Don't let them sleep in at the weekends to "catch up". It is very important when re-setting sleep patterns to keep getting up at the same time, whatever has happened the night before.

Oh, and I'd just bin all the biscuits next time they sneak down. Pour some washing up liquid over them if you think they might retrieve them!

[DoesNotGiveAFig]

The snack before bed will keep them awake, that's an energy boost right there.

[Hardgoing]

I also wondered if you were up at 5am?!

You have had some seriously good advice on this thread, hope you can take it and set some firmer boundaries around bedtime (but perhaps later than it is currently).

[BlessYouToo]

Thanks all.

I got them up at 6.00am and this morning was actually very good. They were tired but they got themselves ready with minimal fuss and did not need much cajoling. As we had the extra hour, there was much less rushing about and less stress. They were even sitting in the car waiting for ME for about 10 minutes and DD was ready to leave when I was which is amazing!

I shall keep on with the 6.00am wakeup and they will go to bed at 9.00pm tonight. Hopefully the hour earlier getting up will kick in some tiredness after a few days.

[TroublesomeEx]

Did you do it?

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

I think you also need to tackle the mornings because they are pushing the boundries of behaviour. If they won't get dressed they go to school in their pyjamas. If they won't get ready on time you don't shout you sit down and enjoy a coffee whilst telling them you will write a note to their teacher explaining exactly why they are late (that usually focusses minds).

I wonder if you are running yourself ragged trying to protect them from the consequences of their behaviour - organising, cajoling, pleading then blowing a gasket (been there, got the T shirt!). They are old enough to take the consequences and if that means getting in trouble for not doing homework, going to school late or looking like they have been dragged through a hedge backwards so be it. Sometimes children only learn if they have to deal with the consequences of their behaviour.

Now here is one of the key features of the plan - praise them when they get it right. If one of them gets up and drags themself zombie like to the table and eats breakfast with minimal fuss - notice it and praise or thank them - it can be as basic saying "thanks for getting on with your breakfast". That way they get attention for doing what you want rather than only getting attention when they do something you don't want.

This books are very good
www.amazon.co.uk/Divas-Dictators-Secrets-Having-Behaved/dp/0091923859/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322733319&sr=8-1&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

www.amazon.co.uk/Divas-Door-Slammers-Behaved-Teenager/dp/0091924111/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1322733319&sr=8-2&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

My children are younger so I have the first book but the second one might be more relevant as your children are older. Charlie Taylor was/is? head of a state school for children with behaviour difficulties in London and is now the Government's "Behaviour Czar".

[IloveJudgeJudy]

I think you should try not giving them any attention at all. Don't speak to them, just help them get back into bed. It will take a few evenings/nights, but should work. They are feeding off your attention and displeasure. Don't look at them, either if they are not doing what you want. They will ask you questions, talk to you... Don't reply. Just put them back into bed.

[CailinDana]

Why on earth do you threaten to lock them in the car to sleep? Do you ever actually follow through with this threat? If you're making ridiculous threats and never following through with them then it's no wonder your boys have no respect for you. If you make a thread you absolutely must follow through with it regardless of any whining or saying sorry. That'll teach them that what you say actually has meaning and you're not just some annoying woman wittering on about nothing.

There is no way I would ever have come downstairs after lights out when I was little, and my mum was not a shouty or hitty mum, she just had authority. If I did come downstairs for any reason other than actual illness I would have been marched straight back up without a word and if I did it a second time, especially at 9 or 10 then there would have been consequences. If your kids can't be trusted around biscuits, then don't buy biscuits.

[PastGrace]

Do you have a garage? If my aunt made my dad laugh at dinner times, he was sent to eat in the garage by himself! Although maybe not such a good idea if you have "fun" things in the garage....

[coraltoes]

You have totally lost control in your own home. Crazy. Partly it seems it is because you and DP cannot be bothered to see the disciplining / control through. Such as sitting othe landing, standing over them at homework. It isn't a lack of fear OP...it is a lack of respect for who rules the roost.

If they sneak down for biscuits, don't have biscuits in the house.

Why do they need a sweet pudding at dinner? That is bound to give them extra energy.

I would seriously talk to them about the consequences of bad behaviour. They are old enough to understand. Try reward charts? Each star equals something in their Xmas stocking? No stars equals just a tangerine in the toe.

I am astded you let them threaten you, and sad that you think depriving them of sleep is the answer. It isn't. A firm mother and father who lay down and see out the rules is what they need. Buy the jo frost book maybe.

[countessbabycham]

Mine have to share a room too (no other option).I have found its crucial that you don't get to the stage of them being absolutely OTT as you've lost it then! It is harder when they share I think as they wind each other up and niggle at each other.It means if one is tired and wouldn't have played up,they do anyway if the other one is up for it.I also found staggered bedtimes don't work - it just prolongs the process.

Losing DS or Wii time is a good one.I find TV time not so good particularly if its more one than the other at fault as it affects both.It's taking time to find out what is going to hit the spot - such as a particular activity that they enjoy.I do think perhaps a later bedtime and a calmer but consistent approach where you show in your actions (carrying consequences through) that you mean business may help.

Good luck!

[Alibabaandthe80nappies]

Dear god you can't have him threatening you like that! What will the teacher think? Probably along the lines of 'about bloody time'.

Ton of bricks required here OP, what are they getting for Christmas?

[PigletJohn]

lights out, remove the bulb, and get one of those monsters that live under beds.

[Jux]

Valerian. Camomile tea. There are other relaxing drinks you could give them, ask at the health food shop.

Valerian tastes vile and smells vile, but you put 15- 20 drops in water and make them drink it. Many people find it very effective. Making them drink something so disgusting (well, I think it is!) could be another incentive to make them behave better at bedtime with the added bonus that it makes them sleep.

I would move bath time up quite a long way. 9yo after supper and then bed, 10yo after that. A warm bath is very relaxing. Lavender in the water could help too and maybe lavender bags under their pillows. I've heard hops are quite effective for inducing sleep too.

FWIW most of dd's class were going to bed at 9.30 in year 7 and 9ish in year 6. Give them no more than 1/2hr quiet reading, and if they're not quiet then lights out immediately.

Getting yourself up at 4am is over and above the call of duty. Good luck.

[startail]

I'd say bed at 9 no nonsense, lights out 9.30. I suspect it will make no difference to morning grumpiness.

[HauntedLittleLunatic]

I also think that 8:30 is perhaps a little early for children of this age. IME I found that when they go to bed early they are not tired so lay and talk for hours. If they go to bed a little later (or in my case they still go to bed so I get some me time but they are allowed to watch tv til 9 then lights out) they go to sleep earlier cos they are more likely to settle when they are supposed to IYSWIM.

[squeakytoy]

DS2 has before threatened to tell his teacher we are 'horrible' to him though (little sod darling) so that rather puts me off!

If he is as lippy to his teachers as he is to you, she would probably thank you!

Seriously, that amount of back-chat and disrespect would be wholly unacceptable to me.

[CardyMow]

I have two ds's sharing a room, with no space anywhere to separate them. My DS1 is 9.7yo and DS2 is 8yo. There is NO WAY they would come downstairs and mess about like that after bedtime. But my two boys do have a much later bedtime. They both go to bed at 9pm on a school night. DS1 falls asleep pretty quickly, DS2 takes about an hour to sleep. But they are to lie in bed and be quiet or they will lose a privelidge.

The thing that works best for DS1 is the threat of losing his dsi, I did it so that he lost a day's screen time for each 20 minutes it took him to stop messing about. I only had to do it once for him to see I meant it, so he now stops at the warning. For DS2, it is losing TV time, again, a days TV time lost for every 20 minutes messing about. It took more than once with DS2, but he has learnt to stay in bed lying down quietly at bedtime, and to read in his head in the mornings. (DS2 is an early riser as well as late to sleep) .

If my 13yo DD messes around, the threat of losing her mobile usually works.

[BlessYouToo]

OOOhh I would love to give them a resounding stinging slap quite often as my mum did me. DS2 has before threatened to tell his teacher we are 'horrible' to him though (little sod darling) so that rather puts me off!

[BlessYouToo]

Ali - they eat a hot school dinner, then toast & fruit or similar when they get in, dinner at 6 ish with dessert (fruit pie/bananas & custard etc) then milk and biscuit before bed. Not great but not terrible. They are always ravenous. Of course DS2 would be hungry at 11pm when he last ate at 8pm and has been jumping around since then, that's why he should have gone to bloody sleep before that. They do mess about at meal times so standing one in the hall is a good idea.

DH is very good with them but they have never feared him either. He does a very good resounding boomy loud shout as well. He has worked very long hours/away since they were born so was not around a lot but since last year is around a lot as he changed job.

The fact there is 2 of them is the main problem. Will read through this thread again tomorrow, bed now so I can get up early! Thanks for all your responses.

[countessbabycham]

squeaky I remember the thudding of Mums feet coming up the stairs and hiding under the covers,and we knew what was coming next.......

But we were little toads and we still insisted on doing it again......

[squeakytoy]

See this is why my mother had it right (I think!).. because I did fear a smacked backside. It stung.

Ergo, when I was warned that if I carried on behaving badly, I would get a wallop, I reconsidered my behaviour. My mother rarely had to carry it out, but I had no doubt whatsoever that had I continued to defy her, she would have done. That to me is what smacking should be about.... not needing to do it!

I know there will be people who say that is wrong because it is making the child fear being smacked.... erm yes, thats the whole point of it!

Parents are there to be in charge. If the "you cant make me" attitude isnt nipped in the bud sharpish, you are in for a hell of a bad time during the teenage years.

[Alibabaandthe80nappies]

What are they eating in the evenings? Too much sugar, not enough and they are actually still hungry?

If they are mucking about at meals then make one stand in the hall while the other eats and vice-versa. No treats, no pudding.

Where is your DH in all this? Does he discipline them?

[noblegiraffe]

I can think of two ways to go about this. Split them up as they are winding each other up. Keep the elder one downstairs with you until the other has gone quietly to bed. Make it boring downstairs. When the younger one is settled, send the other one up. If they then kick off, take the other one downstairs again. It will remove the younger one's playmate and the older one's incentive to mess around once in bed if he will then be put in the kitchen again.

Or you could treat them as older children, discuss the problem with them, negotiate an agreed bedtime routine and lights out time with them and a reward if they stick to it - 'As we will all be well rested, we can do X at the weekend' sort of thing.

[Alibabaandthe80nappies]

7.30 bath is too early I think, they aren't toddlers any longer and it gives them too much time to muck about.

Quick shower before dinner, and then they can have a couple of hours to do as they please before bed.
In bed and quiet at 9pm, lights out at 9.30pm.

Don't discuss, don't engage. Tell them how it will be - frogmarch then to their room if necessary.