to think people who say 'I can't afford to strike but I'm going to' actually can afford it?

[StrawHat]

Surely if you can't afford it you have no choice.

I really cant afford it, and i wont get anything from the hardship fund either,as my hubby is earning. But i am doing it, because i am sick of the way the govt thinks it can just change the rules as we go along. This isnt the first time they have tried it, and it probably wont be the last.

How am i covering the money i will lose? Simple - living on Aldi mince, fish fingers and sausages. No Roast dinners until Xmas dinner! I earn less than 6000 a year, and the changes wont affect what i pay in, but it will damn well affect when i get it paid back. Added to the announcements Mr Osborne has made today re public sector wage rises (haha) they really dont deserve me and what i do for the amount of pay i get.

we have been told we will still get paid if we dont turn up, but will have to make up the time lost

seems fair to me

Well basically it goes something like this.

Income 2009-2010 = £400 billion
Outgoings 2009-2010 = £550 billion

give or take, depending on whom you listen to and how you slice/dice figures. basically we're spending a LOT more than we bring in.

Ah yes....the good old tax the bankers argument. Let's assume for a moment that's possible. What does a banker's tax bring in? £1 billion? £2 billion? Would that pay for public sector pensions? Erm...No. The unfunded pension liability is estimated to have been £15 billion alone in 2008-2009. Source: Link

What about the good old "tax avoidance" line? Well let us look at the facts from the HMRC rather than dubious websites from ultra left wing organisations. Well the total of tax evasion AND avoidance is estimated to be around £40 billion. Source: HMRC

Obviously £40 billion is a LOT of money until you realise that tax avoidance is perfectly legal and very difficult to eliminate. I mean for example if I stick some money into an ISA, am I not avoiding tax by leaving it in a normal account? If I buy my DVD's from Jersey am I a VAT cheat?

What about raising taxes on the rich then? Well given the total of income tax was £134 billion in 2009-2010 and that the top 10% contribute half of that figure, even if we raise the top rate of income tax to 60%, it won't even come close to plugging the gap.

Oh and on top of all the above, bear in mind that MORE people are expected to live longer and be supported by the same number of working people.

So yes, looking at the figures I do maintain my view that there is not enough money to pay for everything we want and since pensions is the largest outgoing, it stands to reason it's on the frontline for cuts. To me, not to do so is simply not an option if you want to show you are serious about sorting out the nations finances.

Is it fair? No. Do we have to do it? Yes.

niceguy - are public sector pensions the biggest outgoing (annual figures not the total liability) or does that include state pensions too? I'd like to know.

well, one day is not going to kill anyone. Most people have at least one and a half days off every week A one day strike is a gesture against an infair tory
government

Unfunded schemes only make up a small part of public sector pensions- also your links are quite simplistic, which actually makes them misleading.

incomings/ outgoings aren't related to pension schemes.

This link busts some myths.
www.unison.org.uk/pensions/mythbuster.asp

Iggly, pensions overall so that includes both public sector pensions and state pensions.

My point is that as part of the overall debt reduction strategy, we have to accept that people will have to work longer and receive less. To try and exclude the elephant in the room does our credibility no good whatsoever.

What the public sector strikers are in effect saying are: "I don't care who pays...someone else should"

The only way out of this mess is to spend less (ie. cuts) and tax more.

Noone is ignoring the elephant in the room. The public sector are not saying no to changes. They have made changes before and many times in the last few years. I don't know where this idea comes from that they haven't?

Public sector workers are looking at further pay freezes in future years. These are generally hard working people but are being written off by a succession of politicians as greedy spongers. So divisive.

Also the total pension liability is not the same as the annual cost of providing pensions - what's the annual cost?

The Unison link is simply biased nonsense.

Is it a fair comparison to compare the "average" FTSE100 director with the average public sector worker?

Yes we are all facing "unprecedented job losses and pay freezes". But the private sector has already had their pensions cuts. So if we are "all in it together" then it's only logical that the public sector must also take similar medicine.

The banking crisis triggered the recession but let's be clear, the pension timebomb has been around for decades. Even without the banking crisis, this day would come.

Public sector pensions are paid for through taxes. So in a time when the govt are in a massive deficit and numbers look worse each day, I can't see how anyone can say there's no funding gap. The whole system relies upon the government chucking in a massive contribution, a contribution they can no longer afford.

YABU.

DH will probably lose about £100 for striking. We can't afford that with me going on Maternity Allowance at the end of December (which won't get paid until the end of January, so we'll only have one wage to live on for that month) but he feels he has to do something because if the proposed changes go through, we'll lose £100 EVERY month through the pension increase and then have two children to support instead of the one we have now.

Well Iggly, in 2009-2010 state pensions were £70 billion (ish) and public sector pensions were around £19 billion. The latter, employees paid in around £4.4 billion.

So given our annual tax income is currently £400 billion, I think it's impossible to cut our debts without tackling pensions.

Let me be clear, personally I think it's really shit how we must do it. To me, it's awful that someone is promised a certain part of their remuneration package and later it's changed. I can totally sympathise why people are so pissed off.

But then we simply must start to live within our means and where things are promised that later we find we cannot afford then we must be realistic and make cuts.

Otherwise what happens? Our kids suffer and then we all suffer.

The government pays public sector workers to do a job. By definition, one of the biggest outgoings will be pay and pensions. How else would the government enact policy?

Does everyone deserve to have a shit pension?

Action was already being taken on pensions. Why don't you get that?

And the annual cost of pensions is predicted to rise and, get this, fall.

Why hit public sector workers harder - if it was about saving money, then action would be taken across the board.

Agree with Iggly and OP YABU, I cant really afford to lose a days pay tomorrow but then, its about the principle. Yes I may lose a days pay tomorrow, but thats better than the huge chunk I will lose every month if the pensions rise as they are supposed to. Its about making a sacrifice for the bigger picture.
(besides I have already had two pay cuts and now a pay freeze so am majorly hacked off with being beaten with a stick by the government, just because I choose to work for them)

The Local Government Pension scheme has already been cut once before in 1998. So already the accrual rate is much lower than it was and you can't get your pension until 65 years of age. There were no strikes at the time this was brought in as many workers accepted there did need to be cuts. So if brought in, this would actually be the second time it is cut in 3 years.

I kind of feel if people don't make a stand now and complain, the government will make the cuts and then in a few years time make another cut, etc.

I'm affording it because I put aside a day's wage each month and it's coming out of that. But I always spend that money the following month somehow, my savings never say that for long. One of the Unison staff at my school toldx me that she earns so little, she'll barely notice the difference. Which is depressing but even more of a reason to support the strike action. Practically, I have been on strike 3 times in 2 different authorities and I don't think they have deducted the day's pay anyway. I think it's too complicated to mess about with the payroll that way.
Oh, and we are not all in this together. If we were, private sector staff would have all walked out too.

Civil Service - we will have a days pay deducted, lose a days service (have to work an extra day towards our pensions - loving the irony of that one!) and, if you are a manager sort out the cock up that pay branch will make of it all - scheduled rest day/on leave most of them will have a days pay deducted as well and someone other than the person who made the error will have to sort it out, and the person who was scheduled not to work will have to wait months to get the money back.

We will be overdrawn, and are making the money back by not buying each other a Xmas present. What we can't afford is to lose the increased pension contribution month on month.

DP is 5 years older than me and will be pushing up daisies before I get to retire under the new scheme so it's not even as if we are banking the money for later.

niceguy

Loving your posts, it's so glaringly obvious and you put it very simply. Thank you

Again niceguy where am I saying that something shouldn't be done? However if you thunk cutting pensions is the answer, you are mistaken. I'm waiting for the cuts to state pensions to be announced. I'm waiting for the chancellor to introduce tax breaks to encourage people to save for pensions or to force encourage companies to include pensions as part of remuneration for all of their staff, not just the ones at the top. All of these things would help, instead of merely fingering public sector workers.

So are all those striking going to go on the picket lines?

Or as my teacher friends are doing- looking after their own kids cos' their children's school are on strike?

I've only met two people in RL who are talking about striking - one is DS's teacher - both of these people are saying that they are looking forward to a day's Christmas shopping .

Thats a representative sample you have there, Ragwort

There are no picket lines at my place of employment. We are demonstrating against govt policy, not our employer (the NHS in my case)

Myself, and the vast majority of my dozens of colleagues will be on a rally in Manchester

We had rallies at the hospital and the council offices. DP works for LA+sponsor; we went to hospital. Great response from public. Onward to victory!

Niceguy has written a load of rubbish.

Cuts to public sector pay (aka increase in pensions contributions) will go to the public sector pension pot and therefore won't have any impact of the deficit at all.

Unless you are confirming that the government plans to skim the money off to pay for the deficit reduction?

Several staff where I work, who are very vocal in support of their union and their "rights", came to work today as they said they couldn't afford the lose the pay.

The Union Rep came to work. When I expressed surprise at seeing him he said that he would be retiring soon, so his pension wouldn't be affected, so he didn't see why he should forfeit any pay on behalf of other union members.

What a hypocrite. I don't agree with the strikes, but if you do, at least have some courage in your convictions.