to think these people were selfish and rude.

[cakeoclock]

The push chair v wheelchair on a bus just reminded me what happened this weekend.

I was christmas shopping with friends (one in a wheelchair) in Harvey Nicks Leeds and it was pretty busy. We stood waiting for the lift, the doors opened and it was rammed full of people (no push chairs). Not one of the miserable gits got out to make space for the wheelchair just looked away until the doors shut and we had to wait ages for another lift. There were escalators less than a minute walk from the lift.

AIBU to think that this is lazy, selfish and awful and to hope if any of you are reading you feel ashamed.

Lifts are not designated for disabled people.

They are not blue badge areas.

Therefore, although it may irritate you, "lazy gobshites" can use them to their hearts' content, and it has absolutely fuck all to do with you.

Thank fuck for that.

Oh and I'm more inclined to move for a frail person merely because, unlike a wheelchair user, they're not already sitting down...likewise for a heavily pregnant woman.

I'm a real wheelchair user Neuro and I certainly don't want you speaking for me thanks.

These are the directions instructions for the lift in a shopping complex is Liverpool.

Lift (The Car Park)

There is a lift for public use.
The lift is located in the car park.
The lift is a standard lift.
The floors which are accessible by this lift are G-1-1a-2a-3a-4a.
The lift is 8m (26ft 2in) from the New Charlotte Street entrance.
Staff do not need to be notified for use of the lift.
The dimensions of the lift are 0.9m x 1.45m (2ft 11in x 4ft 9in).
The clear door width is 85cm.
There is a mirror to aid reversing out of the lift.
The lift does have a visual floor indicator.
The lift does not have an audible announcer.
The controls for the lift are within reach for a wheelchair user.
The lighting level in the lift is medium.
The lift does not have Braille markings.
The lift does have tactile markings.
The lower level is labelled as ground.
The upper level is labelled as 1st floor.
The remaining floors are used to access the car park.

www.disabledgo.com/en/access-guide/st-johns-shopping-centre-/liverpool-city-council

Disabled users have access but not priority.

Stairs aren't actually impossible with a pushchair, I have managed to bump mine up and down them when the lift was out of order or meant a massive detour round a shopping centre. You can't really do that with a wheelchair, I know someone daft who tried that and nearly tipped their elderly relative out.

I really think the majority of people using lifts have good reason. It wouldn't have occurred to me to use a lift in a department store until I had SPD, though I had crutches so it was obvious I needed the lift. Now my Mum and my sister both have invisible conditions that mean they need to. They'd both be very embarrassed by being challenged, but are polite so might actually leave the lift if asked to for a wheelchair user even though they need it!

Incidentally on the wheelchair user v pram on buses, my SPD isn't fully cleared up and I can't fold/unfold the pram by myself as I can't push hard enough standing on one leg. Hasn't happened yet, but I'm not sure what I'd do if I needed to fold it for a wheelchair user to have the space!

I would love for someone to tell me to get out a lift. I really would.

Rumple you might want to go shopping with a wheelchair user starting from their house and attempting a 'normal' shopping trip. Stay with the wcu throughout the experience to get the full benefit. Enjoy!

Can't believe people are actually justifying their decision not to make space for wheelchair users. Also for prams - I don't buy the "you chose to have a child" bollocks - lifts are provided for people who can't easily use the escalator or stairs, and in most buildings, they have signs prohibiting buggies on escalators.

I seriously doubt most of the people who cram into the lifts have invisible disabilities. A few sure, but most, not.

YANBU.

RumpleForeskin it shouldn't be necessary to tell or even ask someone to get out so that a wheelchair user can get in. In a big full lift there has to be somebody with no heavy bags, small children, or invisible disability who could use the escalator or even the stairs. So somebody should get out because it is the right thing to do.

I'm not been funny but the shop can't have been so busy that the wheelchair user would have had to have waited too long for a lift surely? If people were waiting that long for lifts then there wouldn't have been ablebodied people in them as they'd have got fed up of waiting and used the escalators?

I don't think I'd have got out, just through not thinking. If for some reason I'd queued for the lift for 20mins I might have thought that poor person is going to have to wait ages and yes I would have got out. But I don't really do shopping centres and I certainly don't go shopping on Saturdays so maybe I'm just not aware of how busy shops can get.

I'm one of those abusive people that offers my seat to the elderly, gets out of the wheelchair space on the bus if a wheelchair user needs it, and steers well clear of lifts if I have no need to use it.
If I have a buggy in tow, I find it very irritating to watch the lift go up and down, up and down, up and down unto eternity, packed full of people who don't need to be in there, while I wait and wait with mounting annoyance, knowing that I am being held up by people who think it too much effort to stand on an escalator. Particularly at this time of year when the shops are packed to the hilt. I don't even understand it - I'd far rather scoot round by the stairs or the escalator than stand crammed in an airless lift with a dozen strangers, but there you go. Nowt so lazy queer as folk.

Charcoal me all you like - it doesn't matter.

It's a moral judgement it isn't a "right".

I would feel terrible if I expected someone to get out (I'm 39 weeks pg with a 20 month old who is sometimes in a pram) and found they had a prosthetic leg or low blood pressure/heart illness where stairs may be a challenge.

No one has a right over the lift and it shouldn't be treated as such...and I also don't give more sympathy to people in wheelchairs over those with disabilities that aren't visible to the eye.

Imagine telling a teenager to get out, only to find out that perhaps he is autistic but "looks normal" and it brings on an episode? There is no "right", it is moral judgement and everyone is not equipped in the same manner to handle this in the same way.

I cannot honestly believe that some people are suggesting that only disabled people should use lifts in shops. Mumsnet really does not live in the real world!
We just need someone to utter the immortal line "take my lift then take my disability too".

Well that is very true Rumple - however, how nice it would be if those who didn't need to use the lift just didn't use it. That would be fab.

I'd get out, though I'd be unlikely to be in one anyway as I can climb stairs, use an escalator etc. My mum is in a wheelchair, and we have stood for nearly half an hour in John Lewis before. Some people are rude, selfish or ignorant...or just all 3.

Yes, but you cannot demand it or act forlorn when it doesn't happen. It isn't a legal requirement.

Maybe not, but I consider it a moral one, and that's good enough for me.
I know where I stand on the issue - and it's not in the lift!

Rumple Nobody should ask or expect anybody else to get out. Those who could manage without the lift should ask and expect themselves to get out.

Good luck with your upcoming Christmas present :o

I'm not speaking for you, dancing, I'm sure you can do that for yourself.

So we can sum this thread up as:
One group of people saying "If I want to use lifts even though I'm perfectly able to use stairs or escalators and fuck anyone who has a problem with that, including those entitled fuckers with the wheels who can't use the stairs or escalators"

another group of sensible people saying ""

and then a few peripherals confusing the issue by trying to argue that having a baby or a sprained wrist is the exact same as needing to use a wheelchair/having real mobility limiting issues.

Jolly good. Hope you're proud of your principled stance to reclaim the lifts for the able bodied. Is there a badge you can get?

No, just a compassionate, reasonable one.

That post no longer makes sense...sorry!

I can't believe this thread. Of course I'd get out of a lift and take the escalator if I wasin it, the doors opened and there was someone using a wheelchair sitting there waiting, or someone with a pushchair or anyone who looked like they didnt have the choice LIKE I DID to get up/ downstairs some other way.

When my dcs were little I got so much more of a realisation about how many places were inaccessible through having a pushchair, though it was with a sense of, 'for me this is only for a couple of years, and it's just a bit inconvenient, unlike wheelchair users', bu ti can honestly say that before I had kids I was brought up by my parents to see being able to be kind and helpful as more than a duty, it's a bloody privilege and a pleasure, and I'd hope to give that to my children too.

What kind of example are you setting your children?

And in my local shopping centre, with 3 floors, if you're on the middle one you might be waiting a lot longer than 2 minutes to be able to go up or down, because the lift fills up at the top and the bottom, and often hardly anyone gets out in the middle.

Having a fucking pram is relevant to use a lift. It is no more or less a right. Anyone can use a lift, if you don't like it then don't go to places that have multi storeys if it's going to cause SUCH distress for you.

In M&S near to me there is a sign on the stairs and the escalator saying "Please do not use pushchairs and prams on escalators and stairs".

Prams aren't the focus here, normal people unencumbered are.

Prams is the same principle as buses. You don't take the place of a wheelchair with a pram. Everyone with a moral compass knows that.