To think that pushchairs should have same priority as wheelchairs on buses?

[SparklyC]

Today - packed bus, I was in the pushchair bit on the bus, another mum got on with a buggy loaded with shopping. People sat in space that could have held another buggy in it didn't get up so both our pushchairs had to go in one space and my pushchair is one of those big all-terrain things! Then bus driver stopped bus for wheelchair user and asked us if either of us could fold down our pushchairs/move? Well, first of all, there wouldn't have been any room for us to sit down with our babies and also have our shopping on our knee or even stored on luggage shelf once pushchairs were on. Also the bus service I travel on has a bus every 4 minutes in the daytime. So the bus driver (who obviously has to be sen to be doing the right thing) got off the bus to tell the wheelchair user that the bus was full, and would he mind waiting for the next one, which he didn't anyway. What does everyone else think? Should we mums with our pushchairs be given the same priority as wheelchairs? Should bus drivers ask other passengers to move so that we can get on, instead of (sometimes) feeling like we are an annoyance and an obstacle to them?

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions Helen they aren't buggy spaces disabled people campained for them not entitled selfish mothers oh and what's ring and ride its all saloon cars here and why the hell should someone pay over the odds because they are disabled.

You are probably right.
The fact that you have ignored many reasoned posts addressed to you, signed off with things like 'that's tuff', endlessly repeated the same points without much advancing beyond a whiney 'well it's not fair' and expressed you disinterest in anyone elses difficulties must have confused me.

Clearly you are a fucking genius.

'They are bought by pompous parents who think 'Look at my precious darlings, aren't they wonderful. Er no.'

My precious darlings are wonderful- but only to me and mine.

I had a Silvercross back in the day, we restored it. Only used it in the village though as was humungous, otherwise I used sling or a rather nice fold up buggy that was on it's third child so can;t have been that flimsy! DS4 had a sling and 2 prams- a beautiful large fold up thing that was brilliant until the car died 2 weeks before ds4 arrived then wouldn't fit the boot of the new one, and a tiny fold up, newborn friendly Graco that lasted until he was 3.5 with no harm to him at all. There is a massive choice of conveyance out there for babies, if you put the research in! the obvious choice for someone hooked on prams would be a chassis that can take a carrycot for most days but a car seat for the bus, no? At least whilst they are small. Easy to fold then, when your baby is in a seat that just needs taking off. Though if we'd had the extra money I;d have had <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.hkledmall.com/images/Stokke%2520Xplory.jpg&imgrefurl=www.hkledmall.com/stokke-xplory-p-118.html&h=500&w=500&sz=70&tbnid=T4uFMTsrEIbgFM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=90&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dstokke%2Bbuggy%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=stokke+buggy&docid=hpEoqCRGfh_1YM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lXRYT7ySGYyt8QOz8czsDg&ved=0CKkBEPUBMAY&dur=996" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this which ticks every box going IMO including rear facing.

Kungfu! You had a baby! Congrats. (Tis R). I am now sat on the bus in my powerchair in the wheelchair space. Bwahahaha. People are managing to fold too

Oh and the sign says ' wheelchair space. Please move if a wheelchair user needs it'

See I never see this in real life here maybe its because people aren't self centred and have give and take.

Dotty- depends on the bus company, here you get 2 buggy spaces, one wheelchair space, and 2 disabled spaces (which I sometimes use with ds3 much to the dismay of some older people who think disabled = elderly). I'd always clear out of a buggy space myself for a wheelchair user but at least the signage makes it very clear.

Just noticed the comment that there "isn't that much choice" over prams.

Excuse me while I fall about laughing. When I gave in to the inevitable and realised that we would need a buggy for occasional use with DS1 when DS2 took his place in the sling, I went into a local baby shop where I nearly disappeared beneath the million prams while a shop assistant talked at me at a rate of knots about things I had never needed to worry about before, like the ability to fold with one hand, and space for coffee cups. I was in there for about an hour and eventually staggered out more confused than ever and consulted mumsnet.

And as for "not that roomy" - babies are small. Have you seen one?

[waves to KalSkirata]

I had an argument discussion with a bus-driving relative of mine about one of his colleagues in your area who didn't let a wheelchair user on the bus for reasons which escape me.

I think you can safely say that anyone my relative knows will roll the red carpet out for any local wheelchair user rather than risk the wrath of mumsnet.....

Is roomy even that good? babies like to be enclosed as they were in the womb. That's why people swaddle after all.

Prams are so different now even from when ds1 was expected almost 13 years ago. A frame with a carseat and a carrycot and a seat will suit any child, or you buy a model at the entry level end and replace- second hand that can be a pittance, and even 2nd hand is easier to come by these days what with ebay. MIL bought us a 2nd hand bebecar, it was too big for the bus so was given to Mum and has seen her nicely through 7 grandchildren- it cost MIL £19.

Had it with DS sancti when I've bussed it he used to fall over his own feet but looks 'normal' (hate that word)he used to go in DD2's buggy looks I got but I still had to get him out as we never had spaces also pulled an old woman up for having a go at him in post office years ago for sitting on chair told her he was disabled she stood open mouthed hidden disabilities are the pits.

I like this bit especially!
So the bus driver (who obviously has to be sen to be doing the right thing)...

Or maybe maybe, he wants to do the right thing because he's nice? Rather than doing it because he thinks someone is checking up on him.

Honestly OP, why don't you just walk around with a sign saying "I have procreated! I deserve everything!"

Or maybe because the clue is in the word - the (self confessed by op) RIGHT
thing? How dim do you have to be?

Excuse me, I think I lost my jaw... think it fell off round about 10 pages ago, probably at the "why don't you take a taxi" bit. Could anyone help me look for it?

So, you get a free bus pass for life and your rent paid if you need to use a wheelchair, eh? Hmm, where did I put that hacksaw? Wait - what do you mean, it isn't true? Dammit, I nearly cut my legs off for nothing then, do make your mind up. (It's no good just becoming paralysed, the invaluable Notastatistic explained the legs have to be actually off or it doesn't count.)

Natastatistic ran away when she couldn't win her arguments

Archemedes - you are a foul person devoid of compassion. Your precious little child is so more important than a wheelchair user. Oh fucking diddums, imagine a poor little newborn having to wait with mummy for the next bus. My heart bleeds for you.

Just noticed this , I'm really glad you can show your dislike for someone on this forum without being foul , attacking, aggressive , assumptive or a selective illiterate......Oh wait !!

I was offensive yes, to people who repeatedly attacked me and missed out convinient parts of my post:
I would happily fold my pram if my stuff/child is held
I always would and have got off the bus for a wheelchair user.
that is literally like the tenth time I have said this.

Not read all the posts but IMO what should have happened is for those with the buggies to get off the bus and wait for the next one so that the wheelchair passenger could get on.

I am a bus driver and even I get lost in this. The DDA 2005 & 2006 amendments states in confusing terms that we must ensure the wheelchair space is available for a disabled wheelchair user. The bus companies apply a 2003 rule that allows them to use the space for buggies etc. So far as I am aware this is unlawful, for as soon as the space is used it is no longer available, unless of course some kind person obeys the rules and makes room.
The Equality Act 2010 revisits the specs of the access for wheelchairs and again we must ensure the space is available, however this time penalties exist. A breach by one person [driver] can earn a conviction and fine of up to £2500, plus another similar for the company. Strangely most bus companies do not advertise this, and as of this moment there have been no prosecutions.

Buses should be designed so that able bodied, unencumbered adults get turfed off the bus to make room for wheelchairs and buggies. But as it is, these two groups are put in conflict with each other which is rubbish.

Obviously in a buggy vs wheelchair situation, the wheelchair should take precedence. That's obvious. But the problem partly arises because of the design of buses which pitches these two groups against each other while everyone else just gets to watch from their seats and enjoy the bun-fight. For some reason, wheelchair users and buggies are both an afterthought in bus design and in transport design generally.

London bus drivers don't help by taking great delight in turfing women with buggies off the bus if there's one other buggy on the bus (and no wheelchair in sight) because of fire safety. I'm sure you don't busmanbob. It's happened to me many times. And no I don't have a big buggy. And yes it is very difficult to fold down a buggy, hold onto a baby and a toddler and some shopping, and not get in people's way. I put it down to the fact that London bus drivers get so much grief from passengers generally that women with buggies get the raw end of that - someone who won't answer back or threaten them, usually.

I have been in a wheelchair for 13 years. I also use public transport daily. I can drive; it's an environmental and economic choice for me to use the bus. I have to say wheelchair/buggy conflict doesn't arise very much for me, but when it does it seems to be very heated, and I think it comes down to the idea that people have become much more selfish. Perhaps that is a strong word- people are very aware/convinced of their own importance, and conflict that arises becomes a power struggle for who is the most deserving. I have witnessed it regularly in inter-buggy turf conflict.

'I can't fold mine, my child has a chest infection.'
'Well I can't fold mine, I've got a bad back.'
Driver offers to help...
'What if you break it?'
My personal code says that the first priority is to people already on the bus. If it's full of pushchairs and nobody can (I know some can't) or will fold their buggy, I don't argue I just wait for the next bus. Or if there is already a wheelchair on the bus (our buses can carry only 1) again, I don't get on.

I don't think it comes down to a 'race to the bottom' of who is the most disadvantaged and 'deserves' the space more. It comes down to being a decent person. If someone does not fold their buggy for me, I assume they have a valid reason and I wait. Sometimes it's half an hour until the next one but that's buses for you, not the fault of the non-folder. If someone does, then fine, thank you.

I was on the train with a friend once. She was sitting with her DD in the wheelchair space. DD 18 months was sitting on a seat and the pushchair was in the space for the wheelchair.

A guy in a wheelchair got on the train accompanied by a member of rail staff who asked my friend to move. She had a massive strop. There were other available seats and she was only sitting there so that she could have the pushchair next to her. I was so and slightly . I just could not see her logic.

DD , 18 months ,

FatGoth I agree with your POV and your way of thinking but I do wonder what happens if someone lives in an area where there is only a few buses a day or even is down to the last bus.

I think that whilst invisible disability and complications with people who can't fold (eg someone whose car broke down and is doing the route as a once off so has a non folder) are understandable, that is best achieved when people who can are willing and happy to do so- it becomes less of a battle and when we all help out each other (given I often have 4 kids with me it's surely unlikely someone will think I am going to run off with their baby if I hand mine to DH for a sec?) it becomes more tolerant for everyone, wheelchair user and any oehr passengers too.

(I don't think it's overly helpful to want to turf AB people off though- OK in London I know there are other options and many journeys are walkable but certainly back home no bus = no work or no hospital appointment. Everyone has to live, it's a complicated dance and only acvhievable in any decent level if we all take a little responsibility).

Just reviving this thread to post this link - This thread was used in court to help a wheelchair user win his case against a bus company