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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think that there ought to be provision to clean children in school

70 replies

EvilVampireFrog · 17/11/2011 12:02

if they have an accident?

I've been informed that all that can be done is to stand outside the cubicle and pass wipes/ clean clothes.

My child is not capable of cleaning himself. He's 6. Because of this, he has ended up sat with poo on his skin for the rest of the day, leading to soreness and discomfort.

I know teachers/ assistants are not there to wipe bums - but surely it is more abusive to leave a child filthy than it is to clean them?

I have asked to be called in if it happens again, and am just fervently hoping it doesn't happen on a work day when I'm 2 hours away!

So as not to drip feed - DS1 has HFA, but is not statemented as it is mild. He wasn't toilet trained until he was nearly 5, and was in night nappies until 2 months ago. Accidents can and do still happen. The class staff have been asked to tell him to go to the toilet, but (understandably) that doesn't always happen.

OP posts:

marriedinwhite · 17/11/2011 20:23

I feel deeply concerned for the little boy and quite agree that no child should be left to sit in poo or to be poo stained. Is it not, however, of great concern that a child in Y2 is not able to use the toilet in time and and if the child doesn't get there, is incapable of cleaning himself up. That surely is the problem that needs to be dealt with.

It is sad, it is dreadful, but this is not behaviour that falls within the normal spectrum. The child and/or his family need additional help to learn to deal with this. I really don't understand how a child who is incapable of this can possibly be allowed to progress to the junior part of the school. Surely the child will soon be ridiculed by his or her classmates. The whole situation appears to me to be far more complex than whether the child should be left covered in poo - the situation, at the age of 6+ should not be happening in the first place and if it is then significant support needs to be afforded to the familiy.

KittyFane · 17/11/2011 20:24

Spiderpig: Well that's what the NUT say, but then they would, wouldn't they?Does it form part of a teacher's contract is more to the point!
No, cleaning up a child after an accident does not form part of a teacher's contract.
The school should have a policy which makes provision for accidents- a designated person or persons, policy to phone home, shower etc.
The NUT are suggesting that teachers cannot be forced to clean a child but that the child should be cared for appropriately according to school policy.
I would happily help clean up a primary age pupil, it is awful to think that a child ends up sitting in their soiled clothes.
Adverse reactions from parents have made many teachers hesitant to be hands on understandably.

KittyFane · 17/11/2011 20:29

married: It is sad, it is dreadful, but this is not behaviour that falls within the normal spectrum. The child and/or his family need additional help to learn to deal with this. I really don't understand how a child who is incapable of this can possibly be allowed to progress to the junior part of the school.
Well, that's DD (8) and our family stuffed then!! She often wipes her bum badly and leaves skid marks has minor accidents. Maybe she should drop back down to pre-school?!

KittyFane · 17/11/2011 20:32

Oh, and we'll get the ball rolling with the "significant support which needs to be afforded" to our family!

halcyondays · 17/11/2011 20:44

So what is the magic answer to all toileting problems in children aged 6+, married? If you have one, I'm sure lots of parents out there would love to know. Soiling is far more common in children of this age than you seem to think, it's just that parents don't tend to go shouting about it from the rooftops. Nobody wants their child to be having accidents at school, but it isn't always something that can be easily sorted out. Why should this stop them progressing through school?

Original poster

EvilVampireFrog · 17/11/2011 21:27

marriedinwhite he has autism. This is perfectly normal in a child with ASD.

I don't know the cause of it, but I think that he struggles to read the signals.

OP posts:

MedusaIsHavingABadHairDay · 17/11/2011 21:43

I'm a TA in special school and we carry out personal care on any child who needs it, as do teaching staff..right up to the head! Granted it is probably a given that many more of our children will need help(or be incontinent a lot longer than children without special needs) but some of our children could, or have been, in mainstream and I cannot imagine how anyone could refuse to help a child be cleaned up.. I could never leave a child in their own urine or poo!

On residential last year our head came as part of the team and was cheerfully showering a poo smeared child and never once 'pulled rank' on the the less enjoyable duties. We absolutely consider it our duty of care.

However todays 'code brown' moment involving a very mobile 13 year old pickle who chucked the contents of his nappy at me with beautiful accuracy was one of those duties that make me glad I keep spare clothes at school too...

KittyFane · 18/11/2011 06:57

Medusa - OP's DC doesnt go to a SN school I dont think. The two situations are not really comparable.

A SN school has a much higher teacher/ pupil ratio compared to mainstream for a start.

The majority of teachers in SN schools have very different training to teachers in mainstream, fewer restrictions on physical contact with DC as obviously many children in SN schools may have additional physical needs.

DownbytheRiverside · 18/11/2011 07:00

Schools catering for children with SN also have appropriate facilities for cleaning children, shower rooms and the like.

nooka · 18/11/2011 07:14

It sounds as if the problem here is really the school/teacher not recognising that the child is autistic and needs proper help with toileting (or at least not recognising it in a very helpful way given the IEP). MY ds occasionally came home from school with dirty pants and a few times had an accident and came home with the school spares on. I wouldn't expect an NT child to be given anything more than instructions from afar by the time they are in Yr2, but given that this little boy is not NT that's clearly not OK.

I think that you probably need to go in and talk to the SENCO.

JjingleBeanplusPudalltheway · 18/11/2011 07:24

Yanbu

I find it very sad that the people we should trust most with our children are, scared to care for them fully.

Fwiw pfb has just started ft school at a mere 4yrs, 2mnths. His class has 5 members of staff. We had serious trouble with the settling in process and the male teacher was amazing, he really understood all our concerns and would hold dcs hand etc while we left. And we now have a happy and confident child. Dp is just as likely to clean up either child so why would a proffessional male doing it concern me?

KittyFane · 18/11/2011 07:42

I find it very sad that the people we should trust most with our children are, scared to care for them fully.
30+ years ago this help was more likely to be given but parents themselves have put a stop to it. Physical contact is now a big no no.

DownbytheRiverside · 18/11/2011 07:57

I do agree that over the years I've been teaching, the H & S and child protection requirements have changed and intensified dramatically.
Things that would have happened automatically 28 years ago when I was a probationer are now subject to close scrutiny, record and a lot of hesitation and uncertainty as to what should be done to protect both the child and the adult concerned.

hanaka88 · 18/11/2011 08:14

He needs a care plan with a teacher in school that is willing to clean up (not in their contacts)

Loonytoonie · 18/11/2011 08:27

Years ago. when DD2 was in nursery (in Wales), so aged 3 and a bit, she had a little bit of an upset stomach. I took a call from the NNEB to say that she was in a bit of a mess, and could I come up and sort her out.

I was in work at the time, and on a call, so about 30 mins from the school, so between trying to sort out my parents to come up (they couldn't make it) and frantically call DH (wasn't answering mobile), the poor mite was waiting about 40 mins in all.

When I arrived, she was still on the loo, after having had a complete poo explosion in her little jogging bottoms...and really, really distressed. I was too upset for her to do anything but grab at my wet-wipes and do the best I could to clean and change her into her spare clothes (which were in her back, such is the recommendations of her class teacher). I took her straight home for a nice warm bath.

Looking back, I'm still incredibly annoyed that they just left her to sit in her own poo for that long. She was clearly unwell, and frankly, at just 3 years of age, was in no position to clean that up. Had it been me, I wouldn't leave any child in that distress, not any child.

I'm still angry with myself for leaving it at that. I should have complained.

JjingleBeanplusPudalltheway · 18/11/2011 09:29

kitty I wasn't meaning that as a negative I've worked in a preschool and found it incredibly sad we weren't allowed to pick up a sad/hurt 2yr old.

I totally understand the reason for the rules as there are many parents who'd take great pleasure discrediting (sp) a caring professional.

colliwobble · 18/11/2011 10:33

catgirl1976 - im with you on this

KittyFane · 18/11/2011 11:57

jingle no, I agree with you! We should be able to help, we can't though :(

Loonytoonie · 18/11/2011 13:42

FWIW, there are many a parent who would like that you professionals pick up our children and cuddle them should they fall/be distressed.

JjingleBeanplusPudalltheway · 18/11/2011 14:20

I know its not realistic but there should be an opt in/out for allowing them to care

One mum at our preschool actually begged us to take her ds from her and hold him on our knee at registration as he found settling in hard, I'm glad we did as a few days later he was loving every second, my ds later went there after I left and knowing someone I trusted would do there best to comfort him comforted me. And more than once the leader took him from him and gave him a cuddle so I could leave. He's now very happy and relaxed being left.

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