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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

to think that there ought to be provision to clean children in school

70 replies

EvilVampireFrog · 17/11/2011 12:02

if they have an accident?

I've been informed that all that can be done is to stand outside the cubicle and pass wipes/ clean clothes.

My child is not capable of cleaning himself. He's 6. Because of this, he has ended up sat with poo on his skin for the rest of the day, leading to soreness and discomfort.

I know teachers/ assistants are not there to wipe bums - but surely it is more abusive to leave a child filthy than it is to clean them?

I have asked to be called in if it happens again, and am just fervently hoping it doesn't happen on a work day when I'm 2 hours away!

So as not to drip feed - DS1 has HFA, but is not statemented as it is mild. He wasn't toilet trained until he was nearly 5, and was in night nappies until 2 months ago. Accidents can and do still happen. The class staff have been asked to tell him to go to the toilet, but (understandably) that doesn't always happen.

OP posts:

TeWihara · 17/11/2011 15:02

Does your son have an IEP? Could you ask for his accident clean-up to be included as part of that? Making it a 2 person job generally solves the 'accusations' issue and is how most places do it.

To add, I don't really think it's the teacher's job - in normal circumstances with an NT child harsh as it is I think it is best to leave them to learn to clean up themselves. Learning to wipe properly is going to stand them in much better stead long term than the small amount of damage that might be caused by a one-off not wiped perfectly incident.

However if it is unlikely that the child is going to be able to learn how to wipe properly (or at least learn on a normal timescale) then it should be handled differently imo.

Original poster

EvilVampireFrog · 17/11/2011 15:12

tethers I haven't applied, he wouldn't get one. The LEA is in a terrible state for EPs etc, DS hasn't been seen or assessed since pre-dx, when he was 4.

I don't think he should need a statement, but I know the teacher dowsn't accept his DX. (we're very lucky, in a way, DS's autism presents as passivity, so he never acts out at school. He does at home though, but I'm sure most parents with children with SN have come across staff who don't believe what they haven't seen.)

Glad I'm not the only one to think something ought to be in place. I am a teacher, but all my experience is in SN schools, where intimate care is part of teaching! Apart from anything else, an uncomfortable child is incapable of learning.

OP posts:

Original poster

EvilVampireFrog · 17/11/2011 15:13

TeWihara it's in his IEP that he is working towards asking to use the toilet.

OP posts:

mollschambers · 17/11/2011 15:14

But surely there is some kind of official diagnosis? Could you get some kind of written statement from his doctor to support your request?

tethersend · 17/11/2011 15:26

You shouldn't need to request that he is cleaned up- this is part of the school's responsibility and their duty of care, regardless of any SEN he may have.

NT children have accidents too, therefore this issue should not necessarily be seen in terms of his SEN unless it is happening very frequently. If it is, then this does not release the school from its responsibilities.

fickencharmer · 17/11/2011 15:26

No instituition keeps all its rules. Schools have a make it up as you go along (factor) so do some teachers

tethersend · 17/11/2011 15:29

No, they should have a clear policy ficken. Making it up as they go along is clearly inadequate, and leaving them very vulnerable as a school.

fickencharmer · 17/11/2011 15:33

I am thinking emergencies; as a soiled child would be. I have never met a set of adults who were not breaking any rules.

one of my Heads would leave school earlyto see a film and tell us about it the next day.

halcyondays · 17/11/2011 15:34

Yanbu, the school has a duty of care to him and he shouldn't be left dirty and sore. There is nothing that says that staff are not allowed to clean children, individual members of staff may refuse, but the school has a duty to provide someone who will.

My dd is 5 and has Aspergers, she was statemented mainly because of toileting issues. She now has a TA assigned to her, before this, other TAs would change her, they do it in pairs. However none of this happened without a fight, she had an awful teacher in her nursery year, luckily the TAs and teachers in the main school have all been lovely and supportive. We had to put our foot down when we started, as the Head was difficult about it, he once told us we were taking resources away from other children who needed help with reading.

mollschambers · 17/11/2011 15:35

I agree tethers but the school clearly aren't dealing with it. I would be inclined to use the SN angle in order that they take it seriously and to make it clear that he does have an additional need.

tethersend · 17/11/2011 15:41

If you run a school for young children, you should not be surprised that they have accidents. There needs to be a policy in place for cleaning children after accidents, whether these are emergencies or not.

Peachy · 17/11/2011 15:42

This caused MASSIVE issues with ds3 and is starting to now with ds4.

DS3 is autistic; in MS he was non verbal and incontinent. They refused to change him and called me in each time. Luckily i lived across the road BUT I was 8 months pregnant and the only place I could change him was a changing mat on the floor wedged into a corner- the last time I did it the Head had to winch me back up off the floor!

The TA was happy to change him but LA said no; LA also said not to a SN placement.

In the end TA got special dispensation to be allowed to change him, it took ages and caused a lot of bad feeling at school.

DS4, not as autistic but I would guess some AS, is at nursery, still wet, has a rather non-handy pants and toilet phobia (ARGH) and Nursery ahve said they will no longer change him so he elarns to feel he is wet. He already knows but doesn't care. Not looking forward to this one...

happydotcom · 17/11/2011 16:11

OP, I sympathise with you. I hear from collegues stories re reception aged DSs being left in soiled clothes etc. I thought it was an urban myth.

Sad that this really happens :-(

I would change any child xxxx

Original poster

EvilVampireFrog · 17/11/2011 16:14

He's in year 2, BTW. I think that has made the difference, last year they were happy enough to deal with it.

OP posts:

Clawdy · 17/11/2011 16:44

In my sons' old school,there would be a quick phone call home to say "Sam has had an accident etc...would you be able to come in and change him or would you be happy for Mrs K to do it?" Mrs K. was the TA,and most mums were very happy with that.

halcyondays · 17/11/2011 17:05

I know we were lucky that dd got a Statement, unfortunately it varies a lot depending on where you live, they can be very hard to get. However a while ago I read a lot about this topic on the TES forums, there were teachers on there saying that they had children in their class who had lots of accidents, they couldn't get a statement but the TAs or sometimes even the teacher just got on with changing them, as they didn't want to leave the poor children like that. The consensus was that schools have a duty to clean children if they aren't able to do it themselves, they are not supposed to call parents in to do it, or to leave a child dirty because they can't clean themselves properly.

halcyondays · 17/11/2011 17:16

So if they were happy to deal with it last year, what's changed? He still needs help, in fact if anything it's even worse as he gets older, as other children are more likely to pick up on it and may tease him about it. They should be dealing with it discreetly and making sure he's clean.

AngelofTheLordiscomingDown · 17/11/2011 17:36

PinkCanary

To digress a little, how can you feel able to clean up a child but not someone else? Everyone has the same bodily functions. So what's the difference? Please tell us.

Original poster

EvilVampireFrog · 17/11/2011 17:46

halcyon last year they dealt with it through prevention!

OP posts:

OldMotherDismass · 17/11/2011 17:50

I think it is unfortunate that as we expect children to start school earlier and earlier, children having accidents will become more common. I know this was not the case with the OP's child, but the effect is still the same. Some late developers may also have accidents and if they do, many not be capable of cleaning themselves up with the teacher giving instructions from afar, or may become distressed. As I say, the effect would be the same as in the OP's case- child sitting in soiled clothes for the remainder of the day.

greengoose · 17/11/2011 18:04

I know someone who trains schools and writes CP policies etc for them and for SS depts. This is a typical kneejerk reaction which he confront all the time to the perceived culture of suing and crying abuse that our society is so affected by.
The actual rules are simple, you do what is right for the child in a safe way, and the school puts in place what is needed for this, it is their responsibility. If a child is dirty then it is the responsibility of the carers (school, while he is there), to clean him, their own fear of being accused of abuse is way down the pecking order of what matters here, and not the responsibility of the child in any way. It is abusive to leave a child in their own poo for the day, and they could be pulled up over that, of course they could.
You should speak to them, of course they shouldnt get to leave him in his own poo, how uncaring and horrible, they need to get back to the basics of what it means to care for kids, and have a bit more respect for them.

CovMum · 17/11/2011 19:24

At my DC's school they will ring you to collect your child if they have an accident. I would trust the staff to clean up my DC's but the school rules do not allow it.

DownbytheRiverside · 17/11/2011 19:44

We currently clean up any child who has had an accident, with appropriate levels of help. It usually takes 2 TAs, in an emergency then one will do it and a member of office staff or a parent helper will be the other adult witness.
All it will take is one parent accusing and every accident will involve a phone call home to a parent to come and deal with the problem. Except those children with a designated intimate care plan with named individuals.

TeWihara · 17/11/2011 19:54

Those schools that just phone the parents... do they not do anything at all to help clear up? Even taking them to the bathroom and giving them clean clothes and wipes?

Because that would seem like a clear violation of the DDA, while them just not actively helping an NT child wipe themselves (at an age where they are expected to be able to do this) is a bit more vague.

OP, I really do think that you should be pushing to add intimate care/accident clear up to your child's IEP if you possibly can. It sounds like they are not going to do anything unless you do, which is rubbish of them but unfortunately that is the way some schools are.

BoysBoysBoysAndMe · 17/11/2011 20:06

I read once that a little boy got his willy caught in his zip at school and the staff weren't allowed to help him!!!

His mother had to come in. He was only about six if I remember correctly. Poor little mite.

I'd have hit the roof if someone had left my child in poo. I am leaving them in their care for goodness sake. Completely agree children need to be protected but think this is ridiculous.

If they are not allowed to clean him up I would expect a phone call immediately so I could get to him to clean him myself.

A bit bonkers imo

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