To think that a salary of £35-40k a year ....

[Doowta]

... doesn't seem all that much when your contracted working hours are Monday to Friday, 09:30 - 17:30; yet:

1. You never work those hours
2. In fact, you frequently work 60-70+ hours between Monday and Friday
3. When working outside of these contracted hours, you never get time back in lieu
4. You have to work erratic but frequent weekends on little to no notice (and no, you don't get time back in lieu for this either)
5. You have your booked leave cancelled due to work "emergencies"
6. You have a work phone which enables you to work "flexibly"; however, it simply means that you are on call permanently/have to check and answer emails/make conference calls

etc

So ...

if a salary of £35-40k a year doesn't make such a job worth it, what kind of salary would?

I just wanted to say that this was my DH quite a few years ago. He was exhausted and unhappy and spent every day wondering if he'd made a mistake choosing law. Then he jumped ship and took a job for an investment bank. He's still doing law, rather than banking but it's a completely different world. He still does long hours and works away (mainly in the US) but crucially, that's his choice.

He earns a good six figure salary but there are women in the department who left practice when they had kids and whilst they don't earn what he earns, they aren't required or expected to put in the hours either. He knows that they'd be perfectly capable of doing his job but they've chosen the less hours and less stress option for the moment. It's a far less pressured environment than you're in now yet you'd still be using your training. He always says it's the best thing he ever did, work wise.

DH also has a good friend from uni who left to become a management consultant. I think she had longer hours to begin with but now pretty much picks and choices what she does and where she goes. She has no regrets either and when the two of them get together they laugh about how awful it was before and how glad they are that they got out.

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of an essay. Just wanted to share DH's experience. Good luck.

Agree RLIFW

The hours sometimes depend on what seat you are in and your supervising partner. When I trained I had one horrible seat in company /commercial and the rest were all fine - at least in comparison.
I left private practice eventually and now work in house. I earn a good salary working 4days a week and leaving at 5pm. I am lucky to work for a great company but it is possible. I am now on maternity leave with DC3.
How much choice do you get as to seats? It is worth doing some digging with other trainees and speaking to partners you are interested in working with to get a feel for the different expectations etc.
Good luck!

It does depend in profession too. DH is a professional (as am I and would expect those hours were I working) but his type of work can only really be done in his work environment. He works late on occasion and takes the odd call, goes overseas if necessary but rarely has to work bonkers overtime.

Sounds like DH (he's an IT manager for a small group of companies in the SE) though he has to work Sunday morning at home bouncing servers or some such as well as working in the week and he always has to have his phone on just in case something needs fixing or the MDs need some help.

On the plus they are very flexible with him taking time off to look after the DDs if I have a seizure, etc so we are not fussed really that he works so hard (IYSWIM).

Going by your posts he is doing far too much.

I also had similar hours and wage and no time in lieu, or extra pay, was in publishing. I changed careers 5 years ago and started my own business. I work very hard now, with long hours, but on my terms and I get paid for ALL of it. I will never be a puppet again.

Captainnancy, I thought the same: Senior Nurse in Nhs!

Although sadly, the earning potential for this role will never be the same as law.

Sounds very similar to my job.

I would hate to be in that situation, but then, you have the possibility to get out and do something with reasonable hours. Someone who has no qualifications and is on £10000 a year probably doesn't have that same opportunities to change their lives as you do.

Why not find another job, you obviously have the qualifications.

You are not enjoying it; you want to see your dc more. You have two options: either you stick it out and finish your training contract with a prestigious City firm on your CV and transfer to a smaller firm with a lower salary and less pressure once you have completed it; or you jack it in now and scratch around for a lower tier contract.

It's tough for everyone and tougher still if you have obligations to anyone but yourself. You will end up in a good place though if you can bear it and from someone much older who has seen it all before (can't say been there, done that but did have a high paying, all consuming job in the City before DC and retrained locally and in the public sector once they stared school) the dc need you just as much when they are teenagers. If doing what you are doing now might give the flexibility to earn a reasonable wage part-time in ten years' time, it might just be worth it. Mine are now 13 and 16 and I am on the brink of asking for part-time hours just to be around to offer a bit of support to them.

I know lots of Managers working these kind of hours, at the moment.
My husband is an Operations Manager and he does. And I know loads and loads of Managers, my friends husbands etc, who are doing this. Purchasing Managers, Managers in Finance. It just seems to have become expected.
And unlike Op, these Managers are not at the begining of their careers. putting in the hours now, in order to get the 60k, then 80k, then 100k, then the 150k, promotions. These Managers are bog standard and their salaries aren't going to change that much. It just seems to have become expected these days, as the norm

The training contract only lasts 2 years - but it can be a tough 2 years if you are in a City firm. You must have known, surely, that it would be like this? Did you do your research before you started out?

YANBU to think that £35-40k a year isn't much to work those hours, but YABVU and disingenuous to suggest that this is anything other than a short term means to an end. When you qualify, either you take a less pressured job at a smaller firm/GLS/in house (which you really should be able to get if you are at a top firm now) or you qualify on a much increased salary (with generous annual increases and bonuses too).

YABU to complain - this is the deal at a City firm. It has ever been thus.

From the experience of a number of my friends and family it appears that working in the law is pretty much incompatible with having a young family unless you are prepared to sacrifice the majority of your family time.

My brother qualified as a barrister and now works in legal compliance for a city bank. He earns very good money but is out of the house in the week for all of his children's waking hours. (He is completely free weekends though). His wife, my SIL, was a successful solicitor, about to be made partner, and she gave it up completely to be a SAHM as she felt her priorities had changed after having children.

Another friend, qualified solicitor, doing very well in a small firm, had to leave her job when her husband left her as she couldn't manage the childcare. She now works part-time in the legal department of her local council and is much happier.

Another friend, qualified solicitor, never went back to work after her first child. She now has 3 children under 6 and is a SAHM.

If I were you I think I'd be looking for a smaller firm to be doing a less prestigious training contract, with a view to qualifying, then using your qualified status to get a job, not in a legal practice, but doing something law-related. This, from my friends' experiences can lead to a better work/life balance.

Those who have said that it is more standard for people to attempt to qualify pre-children are correct, and I can imagine how tough it is for you trying to juggle everything. Good luck with whatever you decide.

I really wouldn't try to transfer your training contract - stick it out where you are and then re-think on qualification.

It's a means to an end. Think about if you'd be happy working this hard for say £180k - keep it up and that's where you'll be in a few years

If it really makes you unhappy and this isn't just a wee rant, then look into alternative careers. Lots of people drop out when they realise the crazy demands of the job - it's whether it's worth sticking with to reap the eventual rewards, and that's a decision only you can make. You're still at the 'proving yourself' stage which is the hardest bit IMO.

YABU to complain about a City Training contract being like this. You are being paid quite a lot to learn your job. You will probably be costing more than you are contributing to the firm. Early years in the City - banking or law is tough but the rewards are good if you can stick it out. If you can't cope with the hours or the pressure you will not survive the first few years but if you can you will end up with a six figure salary.

You have to be realistic, if you are going to be paid large amounts of money in the future its not for a 9-5 job but for being available when needed and being prepared to take the pressure and put the hours in. The hours may improve as you become more senior (or work in house) but the responsibility grows you will be asked to make difficult decisions / judgement calls involving transactions that may be huge (£1bn+).

I'm sorry to be so blunt but I have been in the City for nearly 2 decades [old gimmer emoticon] and I think you need to recognise that it is tough, there is a huge amount of competition for places but the rewards can be good if you can stick it out. I think you should knuckle down and get your two years done because it will be much easier to move on once you have qualified and a training contract from a well known firm is good for your CV. You really need to sort your attitude out, if you can't be happy about your situation could you at least manage resigned acceptance that this TC is a means to an end and only lasts two years.
Good luck!

I think the sad thing is its becoming the norm in jobs as employers take advantage of the economic climate. I know former colleagues who were lucky enough not to lose their jobs are under a lot of pressure to come in early, work late, don't take lunch, try and avoid toilet breaks etc. Its just shit working conditions all round.

I love the way everyone has read the OP and thought you do the same job as them or their DP . Long hours are fairly common in professional-type jobs, not all of which have the £££ prospects of City solicitor.
Mind you, you have left out the PITA of, "You need to meet this client in Zurich tomorrow, OK?", maybe that comes post-qualification...

Going in-house is a good way to keep in law but have more sensible hours, but tricky to get into without in-house experience.

Your firm doesn't by any chance offer a training seat/secondment in-house with a major client? Might be worth looking into.

You can make it work, but not when you are junior. I am a senior lawyer in the city in a fairly niche area. I can (and do) pretty much dictate my hours. As a result I will never get partnership, but I am well paid and have social working hours.

The other posters have all said it before. The hours in the professions and the demands aren't news - they've always been like that. And they don't change if you stay in the profession and stay client-facing. Only the salary changes.

Once you have two or more DC I think the job becomes nigh on impossible unless you have a stay at home (or very flexible) partner. Even Xenia needed one of those.

All is not lost however. Your options are:-

1. Transfer contract to in-house. A friend of mine completed her training in an Investment Bank. Hard work, but hours were much more predictable and salary was much better.
2. Sweat it out and trfr when you qualify
3. Request a move to part time (eg 4 days). The reality here (regardless of what they promise) is that you end up losing the client-facing side - you'll be the drudge back in the office chasing things up and filing stuff and doing all the internal 'projects'. It is completely demoralising but you will get qualified and will get home at a decent hour. Then when you qualify you will probably need to switch firms
4. Move home closer to office. The further up the scale you go the more you become in charge of your own time. That allows you to work from home sometimes, catch up a few hours here and there in between client meetings, etc.
5. Speak to your partner about being able to record your hours more 'flexibly' - ie if you do 10 hours at the weekend, ask if you can record 5 of them as taking place on the Monday afternoon, so that you can head home early on that Monday. It happens ALL THE TIME but is usually very informally agreed. The more junior you are the less the partner is concerned (as you move up the ranks you are expected to take on more responsibilities). If your boss agrees this make sure you keep very clear records so your boss knows you aren't taking advantage. You also need to check with your boss how many chargeable hours he wants you to record per annum to make sure that if you do take the odd bit of time off using this method that you are not bringing down your own chances of promotion or making the business unit look bad in terms of expected performance. Even if you have not had the number communicated, there will be a budget of chargeable hours that you are being monitored against.
6. My favourite - put in a formal request to reduce your hours per annum by 20% by utilising only your bench time - ie request to work the equivalent of 4 days per week, but with the extra 50 days off days being flexibly agreed between you and your partner, so that during busy times you work 5 days and weekends, with the agreement that when the work concludes and your schedule becomes quieter you take some scheduled time out (and get it blocked out in the bookings systems). The way to sell it is to use the phrase "In this way, I will effectively be paying for bench time that would otherwise be a cost borne by the company". They kind of like it when it's put that way. You will of course have to take a 20% salary cut, but if it were that or give up your job then I think it's worth doing.

What I'm not getting from your op is whether you have an issue with the job itself or just the hours. If you could be a solicitor with decent hours, would you be happy with that?

The reason I ask is that it is entirely possible to be a solicitor with decent hours. I work in-house and do 8.30-4.30. I leave on the dot every night, because I have to, in order to collect my dcs before their nurseries close. From time to time I put in extra hours at home, but that is the exception rather than the rule. I don't earn anything like I would in private practice (especially not in a London firm), but that's the trade-off.

I doubt you'd be able to transfer your training contract, they're like hen's teeth as it is. Not going to hurt to look around though!

Tbh, even if it's the job itself that's the issue I would give serious consideration to sticking it out until you're qualified anyway. Your ability to move into a different discipline would be much enhanced by being qualified. It looks much better on a CV than a wasted period of training contract.

Op working as a lwayer in the city is really really hard graft.
I know, I used to do it and DH still does.

Bear in mind at the moment that you are earning a good wage considering how useful you are to the firm and how much money you bring in. Answer to both is not very much.

However, once you qualify you will be on track to earn very highly indeed. Most 3+ post qual lawyers earn over 100k and get a decent pension contribution.
Partners can easily earn over 500k.

But you need to accept that the hours will always be terrible. They will always be unpredictable.
Sure, the more senior you get the more control you will have over your own workload but you will always have to react to clients and their businesses.

It is not a job for the faint hearted. Most fall away along the road...

My DP's previous employer expected him to do that for £13k (yes, thirteen. there's not a 0 missing there.) a year, without any prospect of promotion to something more worthwhile.

He felt bad about being reluctant for about a week, then I lost patience with it and told him to tell them to go to hell, although possibly not in those words. Complete insanity. And no, he didn't get into any trouble for not doing it. I think deep down they knew how unreasonable they were being.

No, it's not enough, but IME it's not that unusual either. DH & I have both done jobs just like that for the same salary, him in engineering, me in (shhh) banking.

Where the job is an early step to very big money in the future though I do think it's not unreasonable to do it for a while.

I think in the UK the vast majority of companies are like this.. They are takn