To think that a salary of £35-40k a year ....

[Doowta]

... doesn't seem all that much when your contracted working hours are Monday to Friday, 09:30 - 17:30; yet:

1. You never work those hours
2. In fact, you frequently work 60-70+ hours between Monday and Friday
3. When working outside of these contracted hours, you never get time back in lieu
4. You have to work erratic but frequent weekends on little to no notice (and no, you don't get time back in lieu for this either)
5. You have your booked leave cancelled due to work "emergencies"
6. You have a work phone which enables you to work "flexibly"; however, it simply means that you are on call permanently/have to check and answer emails/make conference calls

etc

So ...

if a salary of £35-40k a year doesn't make such a job worth it, what kind of salary would?

When I was an employee this was a normal working week for me on less pay. Dh's salary is just slightly higher than that and he leaves home at 5.00 and doesn't return until 8.00 p.m.

It isn't good but we don't know any different. I don't know many people who just work 9-5 and don't have to do any work at home.

YANBU. DH used to have a job like that . He got home about 7pm then ate tea at the kitchen table working until midnight / 1am every night. Them weekends the phone would always go. We had phone calls in the middle of the night and he was working from home when I was in hospital having had DS.

He had to opt out of the EU Time directive. After 4 years of working flat out he became really ill. Personally I don't think any salary is worth that level of stress.

Job: RealLifeIsForWimps and ScroobiusPip were right
Location of job: London

I thought I knew what I was getting myself into, but I didn't "know", IYKWIM. I keep telling myself it's a short term loss for long-term gain, but find myself feeling physically sick at the thought of going in to work every single day. I see my DC for approximately half an hour a day, if that.

Hourly-rate wise, it gets better once you qualify (qualification salary of about £55-60K plus), but obviously, that's dependent on you being kept on/finding a job in a similar firm.

At the rate I'm going, I think it's fairly obvious to every single person that I come in contact with at work that my heart is just not in it. Yes, I work the hours required, but I'm unhappy and as much as I try to hide it, my unhappiness shows through.

I think what's hard is that I've worked before this i.e. had a previous career, and I know that feeling this way isn't always the norm. I keep looking into going back to my previous career, but everyone tells me how mad I would be to give up this "amazing opportunity", at least until I qualify. It's just the thought of two years of this (forget post-qualification - the hours and expectations are even worse then!) that fills me with dread ...

I would promise to respond to further posts, but unlikely to for a long while. Going in today with the expectation of leaving around 19:00PM, but as usual, I doubt that's going to happen ...

requests massive kick up arse for asking for sympathy in the current economical climate

3 and 5 you get in a lot of minimum wage jobs. Also coming in and working for free as its expected of you eg meetings, courses, cleaning the place, planning for the company, taking work home etc all for 6.08 an hour

Well, if it's any consolation, my DB mentioned near the start of the thread is a senior lawyer in a City firm on a 6-figure salary.

He's just been wooed to a new firm who are making him partner and doubling his salary. Admittedly, he's remarkably good at what he does, but the pay-off has been a healthy salary and sociable hours with it.

Might things be better long term?

I think you're maybe just at the wrong stage of your life to be trying to establish yourself in a City law firm at junior level.

Most people I knew who went through the mill (and it is one, and I sympathise- I used to do a similar job) were in their early twenties, no significant other, no kids, so the crazy hours and last minute all nighters were a PITA but not stressful the way they are when you have children- just an annoying curtailment of one's social life. By the time they had kids themselves they were partners/senior associated and had juniors to do the all nighters.

There were a few parents, but they nearly all had a SAHP for a partner. Not sure what your situation is.

I dont know what to suggest. Hopefully some lawyers will come along. Is there any way to get a different training contract at somewhere less pressured? (i.e. not one of the names) as I agree that the hours stay bad for many years. I know people who've canned magic circle with one/two years to partnership as they've just decided they cant hack the hours.

I know it's tempting to not want to lose the opportunity, but maybe another way to think about it is whether this is the right opportunity for you.

Sorry you're in this situation.

OP, my DH is several steps ahead of you (lawyer in magic circle City firm) and earns a six figure salary and I have to say that this situation will not change. My DH loves his work but definitely makes sacrifices regarding family life. All I can say is that if you stay in your career and progress you can be a bit more "master" or "mistress" of your time. My DH manages to work at home a few times a month so he can see DD more and somehow he always manages to spend weekends (and I mean all day Sat and all day Sun with DD) and works into the small hours (if needed) after her bedtime. Interestingly, all the mothers who returned to work at his firm after babies have now left or are contemplating leaving. It's really tough.

ps So I don't think this is really about the salary. Given the salary you'd get as a partner/ senior assoc, I think you have to expect these hours. Law is just one of those careers where the hours and front loaded and the financial rewards back loaded.

Forgot to say that one woman has moved in-house or client-side for better hours, but she is qualified and worked for the City firm for 5 years before she moved client-side.

Nope. But then I think most people work more than their hours. DH earns that at the mo and doesn't have to because of the nature of the role and his position but it is unusual.

Sounds a lot like my DH's job, and he earns six figures. Ask for a pay rise!

I think it is the same in most professions where there is the ultimate potential to earn big bucks though. They make you sweat blood in the early years. When my DH (banking) and I were first married with young children his situation was not at all unlike the OP describes, and the children barely saw his except at weekends. You have to prove your utter devotion to your career if you want to get anywhere in the long run. The money was 'good' on the face of it, compared to what others of his age were earning in other sectors, but when you factored in the ridulous hours and the stress it suddenly didn't seem so great.

But then he reached a level where life gots easier, and he started reaping the rewards of all that early input. The money got pretty good, the hours got less anti-social and he could make his poor subordinates stay in the office until mignight when something went awry with some documentation! It has always been thus.

My situation is similar but without the leave bit-working in boarding I earn 30-35k, work 5 days per week 24 hours a day (and of course on my two days 'off' am doing all my marking and preparation as is the norm in teaching) but have the holidays as pay off. Overnight I'm on call and actual hours on duty in the boarding house are 7am-midnight. It's a vocation and I love it but I'm on maternity leave now and I don't know how I'll manage it when I go back with an almost 1 year old. I won't see her AT ALL 5 days of the week, unless she's up in the middle of the night. DH will effectively be a single parent (he works too of course) and honestly, right now I don't think it's possible. Or at least, it's possible, but my daughter will forget who I am. And I'm not sure I'm willing to let that happen.

I used to be in private practice in the City but after I had my first child I realised that I could no longer commit to the hours.

I now work in house in the City and a pre-requisite of my move (I made it clear in my interview) was that I would be leaving at 5 on the dot. They accepted this and that is what I do without exception. I don't work w/ends.

When I left private practice the female partner tried to persuade me to stay saying I was just another statistic. This didn't bother me in the slightest but getting home to my son for bath and bed did.

It does get easier once you qualify as you can move into a more hour friendly job if that is what you want. Hang on in there.

I know lots of people in local govt who work like this - little chance of big money later! Also sounds like a lot of people who work in local charities - although to be fair people don't have to work these hours - just many I know do.

My DH earns about twice that for pretty much what you describe there. He is given time in lieu but never takes it as he is so busy. In fact this year he started with 28 days holiday and now has 34 days left (to be taken by end of Dec!) and he did take a week off in the summer. He is very busy and ambitious so for us it is worth it as hopefully he will be on a 6 figure salary before he is 40. He does love his job though and I have a busy life and we make sure weekends are as free as possible. I am used to the calls though.

For me it would only be worth it if it were leading to bigger and better things.

I think most people nowadays work well outside of their contracted hours for no extra pay / time off in lieu. I guess its a symptom of high unemployment etc and people will work harder to keep their jobs. I work 60 - 70 hour weeks for no extra pay and I don't think its unusual.

I guess you have to weigh up how much you enjoy the job, what you are looking to get from it etc. So if you are happy to do it or you think doing it will lead to a better position - fine. If not, get a different job

Tbh the issues that you have highlighted tend to come part and parcel with being a professional rather than just having a job. I work as a fully qualified professional (architect) and my contracted hours are 9-5.30 but I can't actually remember ever doing them.
I have never done this job for the money (thank god because there is nowt in it especially these days and considerably less than law) but because it's what I want to do. I put up with the unsociable deadlines, last minute time away from my family and rude clients, planners etc because of the ultimate satisfaction that I get when I finally hand a project over and realise I did make difference to somebody.
If I wanted the money and the 9-5 I would have stuck working at the Bank but I think I would have been bored to tears by now.

Sounds like you are a solicitor. i get paid under 30 k, get up at 6.30 to get DC ready, leave house at 7.20, arrive at 8.30am , sit in office see 3 clients per day each for 60 min appointments, have court most mornings or afternoons, get other court hearings dumped on me at the last minute therefore leaving me with less time and more behind and I leave work at 6.30pm, home at 7.30pm. Childcare takes up over half of my salary, we get no tax credits due to DH's greater salary and i see my child for an hour per night!

Funnily, i'm looking for a new job!

Please also be assured that I type much better at work when it really matters!

Returning to OP, on the face of it the salary looks good but when considering all the extra work that needs to be done .... .

In my profession (accountancy), we have to work long and hard - it has nothing to do with the economic climate, it's just the way deadlines fall. It has got worse as there's more pressure on staffing but it won't go away.

I trained once I'd gradated. No way could I do it now with DS.

I've gone down to part time and still have to work long hours but I will leave the office at 5, get home to see DS into bed then work again once he's asleep. On my days off I work during his nap and if it's really busy, I'll do an extra day a week. And work weekends. I get overtime for the day I'm in the office but nothing else.

It's tough but I (sort of) enjoy it. If your heart isn't in it and you can't see any respite then you need to have a serious rethink.

Sounds exactly like nurse manager to me.
Lots of jobs are like this, is it worth the pain now for the future career?

Sorry, I see that you're not qualified. My advice would be to hang in there and a few months before you finish your TC, apply for jobs at a smaller firm where you could argue to at least maintain or improve upon your salary. You might find it marginally less crappy. I work in a small high street firm in a high unemployment/low income area so I can only dream about having a salary of 40k and Im 2 years qualified. I don't have to work weekends I suppose. Oh who am i kidding, I f**king hate it and need to get a new job.

Good luck!

No that's not enough money for all of that- I'd expect it at 70-100k

however I do notice people martyer themselves at work alot- many people who work long hours do so because they don't work efficiently or don't delegate.
simply working those hours doesn't always make it a necessity.

For me (and for DH) no salary would be worth a job taking over your life to that extent. We share the principle that time with each other and the DC comes first. We both work - him roughly 40 hours a week but when he finishes for the day, he finishes. I work part-time but my hours are very flexible.

In the past we've both had opportunities to up our salaries alot but it would have meant a much bigger time committment to work - and neither of us have ever thought it worth it.

I really think the salary is a moot point, because you really do have to look at career earnings in the professions as opposed to what you're getting as a trainee when you're of fairly limited use to them in terms of billing.

I think the real issue is whether this is the right career choice for the OP as it is the case that most city law/Big 4 accountancy/banking juniors start straight after Uni, have no family commitments and that's how they survive the first 5-10 years when they have little control over hours and it can be truly shite.