"A woman's opinion is the miniskirt of the internet"

[HedleyLamarr]

I posted this in Feminism [brave emoticon], and someone has suggested putting it in AIBU.

So, I was sent a link to this article in the Independent. Your thoughts/ideas are much appreciated .

That's the point though I guess, is that there's nothing to be done about this apart from talk about it.

Which is what this woman has done and she gets told she is attention seeking and men who get threats don't mention them. Which I guess is why we cn only guess at what sort of threats straight white men get.

Well we know what some of the more high profile ones get. A lot of death threat etc.

Others get their home addresses posted on here

I suppose the thing in the difference is something like (sorry thought on paper here)

With the threats to eg dawkins they are because of his views. the threats are because of what he says. if he hadn't said those things, those people wouldn't want to hurt him

With the threats against women (or black people etc) the threats are more because of what the person is. And the people would probably still want to hurt them even if they didn't say anything. Also that what they are sending are to an extent their sexual fantasies. It's not just "I'm angry I want to kill you" it's the fact that they would derive sexual satisfaction from it that adds another dimension.

There is a difference to my mind.

Also, find it odd that some are insisting that it is just as likely to be women sending rape fantasy threats to women, as men. In my life it is only men who have said sexually intimidating things to me. I am sure women do it sometimes, but not as often.

It's the torture element which is different, with the sexual side.

Altogether nasty and I don't know if men get the same level of torture threats unless they are black or gay etc

I find the people I know like that in RL intensely irritating and incapable of any sort of constructive discussion Lying.

What's wrong with acknowledging the other persons opinion and then saying why you think they might have it wrong?

I've seen posters saying why should 'feminists' have to tailor the way they discuss things they see wrong with society, and of course they're right, they don't have to at all.

But the claim that nobody wants to listen to what they think is then understandable, who wants to engage with someone who implies an opinion isn't credible because the person posting it doesn't know about a feminist who's long gone?

Sounds a bit defensive to me.

SardineQueen... I disagree with your point that a threat to a man is because of what he says, as opposed to the threat to a woman being because she is a woman.

Most people are not on anybody's radar, for threats or anything else. That goes for men and women. Men and women in the public eye might attract threats, not because they've said or done something wrong but because there are dangerous people in the world who don't know or care to apply their 'brakes'.

Men and women who want to terrorise somebody will use whatever triggers work - for women that may well be the threat of rape rather than the threat of death but who can say? I would think that threats of any kind are terrifying to either sex and it will depend on the victim's own background and personal views as to which triggers will hit the hardest.

On a slightly different tip, I know a woman writer who wrote about her rape. She also wrote about political things. And ended up subject to several harassment campaigns, including heaps of hate sites saying she was lying about the rape, was a slut, etc etc, and even had weirdoes writing to the raise in jail saying they were going to try and get him out.The rapist almost killed her, and attacked other women, by the way.

FFS.

Should read, writing to the rapist in jail

Exactly so, AgentZigzag and that's why I dont post there. It's not possible to have a discussion about anything, in my opinion, without getting the patronising comments that you got.

To my mind, if you can remember the essence of what was said, that's far more important than hectoring somebody about the accuracy of the person who said it. It's distracting - and rude - but I doubt you'll get an apology.

Two points.

Firstly, those blaming the author of the original article for 'attracting' or 'deserving' violent, mysogynistic attacks might like to see the Observer article today on the same topic -

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/05/women-bloggers-hateful-trolling

• this makes it clear that numerous, entirely non-contentious writers and bloggers have suffered the same fate, eg "Caroline Farrow, a blogger for Catholic Voices," who is "The wife of a vicar and "quite orthodox", but nevertheless gets "at least five sexually threatening emails a day." One of the least obscene recent messages read: "You're gonna scream when you get yours. Fucking slag. Butter wouldn't fucking melt, and you'll cry rape when you get what you've asked for. Bitch."

Anyone who thinks this is in some way 'justified' - I'd be fascinated to hear how, exactly.

Secondly - and I have name-changed for this reason - I was both moved and relieved to read this article, because I too have been on the receiving end of the same abuse from male posters, whilst posting on fairly anodyne forums on subjects where my gender was irrelevant. I received increasingly aggressive and sexualised attacks, culminating in having my (extremely strong) password hacked and was stalked by some nutter off the internet. These things DO happen to ordinary women, women with no public profile at all or desire for one, women who just happened to have their own opinions and express them freely - something some deeply inadequate men cannot cope with. I say I was relieved because it made me realise my experience was not unique and that other women are saying enough is enough. I am glad that this has been made public. Here on Mumsnet we are a little immune from this - it's one of the reasons I now post exclusively on here - as though there are some male posters, tolerance for sexualised attacks is much lower. But those unnused to venturing outside these metaphorical walls may be unaware how bad it can be elsewhere, whether what you post is an any way controversial or not.

The men who post this stuff have been allowed to get away with it for too long. Glad that the fightback has begun.

Two points

Firstly, NO ONE has blamed the author of the original article for 'attracting' or 'deserving' violent, mysogynistic attacks.

Secondly - sorry to hear you got some abuse from some male posters. There are idiots all over the internet. No one has denied that or said it doesn't happen - just that is doesn't happen exclusively to women.

How many people have heard of Eleanor Rathbone?

Not many. ( I certainly haven't )
And that's why half of M'net never post in the feminist section - it's just too patronising.

I read around about Laurie Penny a bit, and some of her stuff thsi year - she seems to be quite out there in her opinions, definitely saying things for effect. One blog likened her to the left wing version of Melanie Philips (I wonder if MP gets similar sorts of hate mail...?) so no surprises that she has been getting abuse really.

To be honest there is a Guardian article that is IMO more impactful as it has less extreme women writers recording similar issues.

But as the Guardian article points out, women are in this difficult position of being sexual as well as social beings, and that is where it all springs from.

Fwiw I was once on a politics forum (had anonymous names so my sex was impossible to determine) and someone threatened to cut my balls off and stuff them down my throat!

I was oddly proud of that :o

And how many people want to find out about what she thought if that's the way they're introduced to her rycooler?

I bet it's much more than half of MN who don't post there, I just find that such a wasted opportunity.

If posters in the feminist section are saying they don't have to fit in with people who don't post there, it's a bit rich to be doing the same and expect people to fit in with their definition of feminist discourse.

'but I doubt you'll get an apology.'

hahaha the thought never even crossed my mind Lying

Very telling of the general way some opinions come across though.

AgentZigZag - Yes, it's probably more like 90% have the feminist section hidden - which speaks volumes on a female dominated site.

it's probably more like 90% have the feminist section hidden - which speaks volumes on a female dominated site.

No, speculation on your part does not then make it true. How on earth can you just make up a statistic and use it to prove a point?

I think it is very accurate to say that only a very small number of posters are regulars on the Feminist section.

You're right - my statistics are based on nothing more than a personal feeling.
But it is fascinating that on a site used by mainly women a lot of them never go near the feminist section.

The threat of rape has dominated my life.

It has affected whether I go out after dark, whether I go out alone, whether I go up to a car where the driver is asking directions. I can't hitch hike, or take a walk alone in the woods. I don't get into a train carriage alone. I don't invite a man I don't know well into my house. It affects my choice of clothes.

I do not have, and have never had the freedom men take for granted, to go where they like, and do what they like, because of the threat of rape. It has coloured my whole life.

So if someone on the internet were to threaten in explicit and disgusting terms to rape me, I would feel very different to if they called me ignorant, stupid, fat, or ginger.

I have used male and female user names. I post what I think. I have had different responses (and abuse) under both - not as serious as in the article, my DH has though - but neither I think is 'worse'. I have felt my opinion initially less respected as a woman, but it usually ends up MORE respected long term. I've actually had more crap as a female user from women than men!

It is interesting that you do get treated differently, but the reaction comes from both men and women. It does annoy me that this is supposed to be a feminist thing as its got sexual overtones. Total crap. No they are just going for the nerve and the thing that is going to cause the most upset. Its the level of school playground bullying for the most part, just taken up a notch or two. We shouldn't be going "isn't it terrible this is happening to women". We should be going "isn't this is terrible that morons think they can get away with this no matter who it is directed at".

Feminism gets make back up when it tries to make out that certain things are only a female problem. This quite clearly is NOT a feminist issue. Its an abuse on the internet issue.

it's probably more like 90% have the feminist section hidden - which speaks volumes on a female dominated site

I don't go near it - I find the MN Feminists are very extreme in outlook, and not really into discussing, more into hectoring. Fwiw.

I would say it's a similar kind of speculation to the one that pours scorn on someones opinion for not knowing the specifics of feminist history hansomeharry (no offence Rycooler )

onehandflapping, your post is very upsetting to read, that your real life has been affected to such an extent as it has. It sounds as though you have been a victim in real life, (apologies if that is untrue, and I am certainly not asking you to reveal that either)..

I have used the internet though since it first began, and been a user of many different forums, witnessing cyber bullying and abuse on every level, and by both genders (who are equally capable of being extremely nasty and vicious when hiding behind the anonymity of a screen. The internet has given sly and sad little people who havent got the bottle to open their gobs in real life, an outlet for their aggression.

Yes, there are one or two real nutcases who have attempted to carry out threats, and have been caught and prosecuted, but the vast majority are just faceless nameless little trolls who are simply on a mission to be as offensive as they can, simply because it is possible.

You see I feel a certain resonance when I hear stories of girls being subjected to sexual bullying in the playground as well.

I suppose because I am female it really upsets me when I hear of women being threatened with sexual violence, whether they are journalists or schoolgirls or whoever really.