"A woman's opinion is the miniskirt of the internet"

[HedleyLamarr]

I posted this in Feminism [brave emoticon], and someone has suggested putting it in AIBU.

So, I was sent a link to this article in the Independent. Your thoughts/ideas are much appreciated .

I'm not frustrated. I'm just making a commentary.

It's rude to yawn at someone else in a discussion (would you really argue with that?) and it's incorrect and dismissive to say that the arguments here have simply been about "poor women being picked on again".

I said already that I thought the divide here was that some of us recognise miosgyny and others struggle somewhat more with that idea. That seems to be where this discussion is stuck at.

I read your post, Noblegiraffe and it's basically what I and others have been saying.

I'd add another bit, theres a type of nasty minded shit who doesn't want women expressing ANY opinion, they're belittled and patronised to start with, then worse abuse follows. that has been mentioned also y me and others.

people are nasty online, but I think the partcular flavour of the treatment women receive proves misogyny is alive and kicking. The proponents of which are out and about in RL, do you think they suddenly turn into decent respectful men when they log off?

There is, and always will be, an assumption that women's opinions aren't as important as mens. As recent as 35 years ago (and that is recent ) we didn't have women reading the news because it was thought they wouldn't be taken seriously. They eventually let women in but only young pretty ones, and even today it's rare to see a woman over 50 presenting the news ( or presenting anything ) whereas men go on into their 70's. I find that more damaging and reaffirming the 'women as decoration' bollocks we have everywhere. I also wonder if Margaret Thatcher would be so hated if she'd been a man? I doubt it - there's always been a 'that bloody bitch, who did she think she was? mentality about her - if she'd been a man he'd be a politician who made some tough decisions ( because that's what men do ) - women are still struggling for equality in that respect - And that's what annoys me.
But as for general abuse on the Internet - anyone gets it. Brilliant post ^ re; footballers. Men get plenty of abuse, even White heterosexuals.

But it's not 'general abuse', is it? It is abuse specifically directed at women. Heterosexual men are not threatened with rape online.

No that's true.

They'll be threatened with death by steam roller or something -

I agree with nearly every word rycooler except for the bit 'there always will be an assumption that ...'
I think things have improved and have the potential to improve some more - if I didn't I would go a bit doolally with this feminism lark.

(please don't say the first thing that pops into your head after that remark )

I'm learning SS - I sit and think about things now before posting. I'm not as reactionary as I once was.

Of course! rycooler And women are never threatened with death, are they?

JS - yes they do, and I wish it didn't happen. I don't know how to stop it. Last month in my car I was called a 'fucking X chromosome' by a man I annoyed on the road. I give up sometimes.

Really really good blog on this topic from Sian & Crooked Rib.

Thunder, I'm not sure how you read my post and decided I thought you were frustrated with posts being misinterpreted. It is you that is misinterpreting posts and calling it a 'commentary'. That you thought I said you were frustrated is but one example.

My comment was not about people objecting to rape threats, it was a reply to a particular comment by a particular person which was quoted in my post.

Sinical, I said that in my post too, that it is a refection of a wider problem in society, the type of abuse aimed at women.

But that's kind of what all the feminists on here have been saying ng. That this internet doesn't cause this abuse (although I agree that the anonymity enables a bunch of tossers to say things they are far too cowardly to say in RL) but that this sort of abuse is different to the abuse that the average white middle class male blogger receives. Not worse, not more morally reprehensible, just different. In the same way that racist abuse is different to common or garden abuse. And that we should identify it, call it what it is, acknowledge it and not pretend that it's the same as non-gender-based abuse.

I don't really know why that's been so controversial, tbh.

ER it's what I've been saying since the start of the thread. Yet people seem to have taken issue somewhere along the line.

Noblegiraffe, so you're not characterising Laurie Pennie's argument and the wider discussion as being about "poor women being picked on again" then?

You agree that this is a gendered issue about hatred of women and that it deserves to be addressed as such do you?

Noblegiraffe your posts are confusing. Your very first words on your very first post on this thread were:

"I don't think it's just women"

Now you're agreeing with Eleanor who says this:

"we should identify it, call it what it is, acknowledge it and not pretend that it's the same as non-gender-based abuse."

Oh ffs not this again. I said I don't think it's just women because LP said it was just women receiving abuse. That men are free from fear of abuse on the Internet. Not sexual abuse, not gender based abuse, just abuse. Which has been pointed out and explained to you about five million times. Why are you still bringing this up as if it has never been discussed?

Seriously, why?

Because you're not being clear.
we all pretty much agree with your last post.

700 innocent posts WASTED

Sinical, here is one of my posts from Sunday. It is now Wednesday.,

"noblegiraffe Sun 06-Nov-11 00:33:39
She also suggests that white, straight men can post their opinions on the internet without fear of abuse, which, as Dawkins demonstrates, is bollocks.

Perhaps if she wrote an article saying 'hey, lots of people get abuse thrown at them on the internet, but isn't it interesting how much of that aimed at women is specifically sexually threatening' she might have grounds for an interesting discussion."

How was that not clear enough?

I'm slightly bewildered.

She wrote an article about gender based abuse.

Why is the automatic response, to talk about non-gender-based abuse?

because her article talked about internet abuse and suggested that men didn't get any. Death threats, vitriol, campaigns of harrassment were all written about as if they were a problem that specifically women face.

Hence the response 'I don't think it's just women'.

Which has been explained to you ad tedium.

But she didn't.

She said that as well as getting accusations of BO, Stalinism etc., (or sth along those lines) women also got misogyny.

So she did acknowledge that everyone gets abuse.

But she concentrated on the specific, time honoured sexual violence threats to which female bloggers and journalists are subjected.

Which apparently, is completely out of order. Women are never allowed to speak of the specific conditions they face, without acknowleging that men also face stuff.

Women, stop being self-obsessed.

I'm sorry, but BO and Stalinism does not cover 'vitriol' and 'death threats' and 'campaigns of harassment' which she firmly preceded with the word 'women'.

"Women are never allowed to speak of the specific conditions they face, without acknowleging that men also face stuff. "
Don't be daft. It's not that she didn't acknowledge that men get abuse, she denied it. Straight white men are free from fear of abuse on the internet. Remember?

Now, if it puts things into context, this is the discussion I was involved in just before posting on this thread. My first post mentions it. Perhaps you could read it, and note my comments about how abuse online is unacceptable and recommending that the school and the perpetrator's parents be informed. You may also notice other people saying 'oh, he should learn to expect it'. I'd also just read that Michael Sheen (straight white male actor) had quit twitter over abuse.

So, coming from a depressing thread about a poor boy who is being called a faggot and a weirdo on the internet and other people saying he should get over it, and from a respected actor being bullied off Twitter, I read LP's article about how women face abuse on the internet. And how men are free from fear of abuse on the internet.

Incidentally, where were you all on the facebook thread condemning the abuse? Or do you only come out for women?

Thanks, Zigzag :)