"A woman's opinion is the miniskirt of the internet"

[HedleyLamarr]

I posted this in Feminism [brave emoticon], and someone has suggested putting it in AIBU.

So, I was sent a link to this article in the Independent. Your thoughts/ideas are much appreciated .

thunder, I think in this case it is missing the point to say that women have a special case and need to be dealt with individually. When you ask 'What makes a man so angry at a woman expressing her opinion that he sends her sexualised abuse' it is not IMO going to give you an especially different answer to 'What makes a creationist so angry at an atheist expressing his opinion that he sends him a death threat'.

I think there is a general problem of abuse on the internet. Derren Brown with his Gameshow programme last week referred to 'deindividuation', the feeling of anonymity and possibly being part of a crowd that can spur you on to do horrible things to people from whom you are emotionally detached yet can observe the outcome (see forum trolling for examples).

I think that the man who sends a rape threat is an example of a wider phenomenon and trying to see it through a narrow lens of feminism is to actually lose part of the bigger picture. The type of threat isn't as important as what the sender hopes to achieve by sending it.

Obviously, once you've looked at the broader picture, there may be specific problems suffered by particular groups which then bear closer inspection.

Does that make sense?

'Maybe Agent ZigZag and Squeaky and Worra will be back on to apologise to Eleanor for accusing her of being a pervert for daring to restate the vile comments made to LP.'

If you'd have read a couple of posts after my remark sniggering about great big cocks PP, I think you'd have found me saying...

'Sorry, ignore that base remark, I shouldn't have revealed my immaturity so easily.'

It was a general apology for lowering the tone, the original remark I made wasn't an accusation saying Eleanor is a pervert, or agreeing with the post that said she is.

Someone mentioned 'cocks' and I asked if they were great big ones, you've woven something into my post that just isn't there, please don't do it again.

I've explained why rape threats are different noblegiraffe. Rape and sexual assault are sadly not uncommon. On the other hand I don't think many people have been the victims of attempted murder.

So a threat to rape reminds women of a real life threat, not an abstract one. Some of the women receiving them will actually have been raped or assaulted. What do you think that does to a woman's head?

I just don't think men are getting threats like this:

TRIGGERING*

@HarpyMarx
HarpyMarx
#mencallmethings "A commie bitch whose cunt should be nailed to a wail and ganged rape" A comment I received lately on my blog!!

That's off the mencallmethings Twitter.

whats that song about wheels?

Ok Agent ZigZag sure apology accepted - I thought the apology was part of the 'joke' - hard to know when people are digging for humour in a thread about rape threats and being words on a screen does make interpreting 'humour' harder. I would say please don't do it again but I have a sister with a taste for crass humour so I know it can be hard!

The wheels on a bus Boney? That one? (or is my brain addled by a constantly singing 2 year old?)

That's a really inappropriate grin in the post after I just posted a really hideous rape threat that a woman had sent to her.

PartyPooperz

close enough :)

Thinking about wheels within wheels and the thread going around in circles
the song had windmills in it but i digress from the thread and apologise.

thunderboltsandlightning

your post wasn't on my screen when i posted, but read in to it what you like.

thunder - who are you to say whether a rape threat to a woman is worse than a different threat to another person? And a death threat? You are saying that you need to have been a victim of attempted murder to actually be worried by a death threat?

It has already been pointed out that men are more likely to be victims of violence and homicide than women so while rape is a real threat to a woman, violence is hardly completely removed from the experience of men.

For what it's worth, while I find that comment that you quoted disgusting and appalling, I don't find it threatening. However, as you said, it might be triggering for someone else and thus far more 'effective' for them.

And examining the hate mail that straight white men receive is interesting as a subgroup in itself because they are not a minority or oppressed group. If they are receiving hate mail, it suggests that the phenomenon goes beyond any particular 'ism'.

noblegiraffe have a look on twitter - the straight white men tweeting on there do not appear to be in agreement with you (see above for various tweets from men saddened by this and talking about alternate realities etc.)

Well however much I don't like LP it looks like her article (and the other more excellent articles such as The New Statesmen one) are making both men and women think about this anew.

Boney I know what you mean - I think it's a side effect on MN of not having subthreads (ie being able to go off on a tangent while the core thread can continue) but it's also something that makes MN an interesting place to debate/discuss on too.

'Ok Agent ZigZag sure apology accepted'

You've written that as if I've just apologised to you about my remark, I didn't, I apologised generally at the time.

Please stop weaving things into my post that just aren't there.

It's very telling of your general tone of posts PP, that you read such a thing into such a remark.

Do you find you do this often on MN?

Do you do it a lot in real life?

Adding such insults into an innocent remark must make your interactions with other people very difficult.

PP, saying that straight white men are also subject to abuse on the internet is not the same as saying all straight white men are subject to abuse on the internet so therefore it is unsurprising that there are straight white men posting that they have not experienced abuse.

The article is saying that straight, white men are the only group not to be targeted with abuse for being what they are.

Ok Agent ZigZag I thought you were clarifying that you were apologising to those who were offended by your remark at the time. I was offended by your remark at the time but thought it was part of the 'joke' and so once I realised you genuinely meant to apologise I accepted your apology, as one of the people on the thread generally that the apology was generally intended for. It was a sure no hard feelings kind of thing. I didn't think you were apologising to me personally then or now.

If I have got it wrong and you were apologising generally to everyone but me well ok! I got it wrong!

"Adding such insults into an innocent remark must make your interactions with other people very difficult."

Where did I insult you? What is "it" that I am doing?

But no I don't tend to find my interactions with other people very difficult at all.

NobleGiraffe Agreed - and it is only a portion of twittering white straight men asserting that they don't experience the kind or level of abuse they are reading that is/was directed at women - but I would say that being twitter users they are at least experienced in giving their opinions over the internet because that's what twitter is used a lot for (opinions on cups of tea and what someone had for dinner some of the time admittedly but still opinions) and it is interesting to see their shock in response in a way that the Get over it, everyone gets abuse contingent might be surprised by. They do seem to think it is abuse that they have not experienced which is interesting.

No it isn't. You might like to read that into it, but that's not what it says.

Who are the 'get over it, everyone gets abuse' contingent? I've not noticed them on this thread.

Talking of twitter, I posted right at the top of this thread that Michael Sheen (straight white male) had just quit twitter over some sort of abusive message. Wonder what it was.

Men are probably going to be shocked by the sexual content of the messages aimed at women as it has been agreed time and time again on this thread that women are more likely to receive sexualised abuse.

'No journalist worth reading expects zero criticism, and the internet has made it easier for readers to critique and engage. This is to be welcomed, and I have long felt that many more established columnists' complaints about the comments they receive spring, in part, from resentment at having their readers suddenly talk back. In my experience, however, the charges of stupidity, hypocrisy, Stalinism and poor personal hygiene which are a sure sign that any left-wing columnist is at least upsetting the right people, come spiced with a large and debilitating helping of violent misogyny, and not only from the far-right.'

'Who are the 'get over it, everyone gets abuse' contingent? I've not noticed them on this thread'

Let me help. All this is on page 1/27 of this thread:

'I don't think it's just women'

'Did you ever hear Richard Dawkins reading out his hate mail from Christians?'

Men do not get the sort of abuse which makes it clear that the person doesn't just hate them for their opinions, they hate them for what they are. Except of course, black men, gay men, Jewish men, etc.

'Oh, of course they do.'

The author is an attention seeking militant'

'I know the same kind of abuse is levelled at both sexes'

'the author of the article just looks like a publicity machine'

'It is not gender specific'

'Adding such insults into an innocent remark must make your interactions with other people very difficult.'

By this I meant when you accused me of insulting Eleanor by calling her a pervert when I was sniggering about great big cocks.

Again, you've misunderstood what I've said, and have interpreted it through a negative framework.

Not everyone is out to offend or have a dig, I'm not on the thread because I want to be in the midst of a bunfight, I was quite enjoying the discussion.

It's a pity the thread's disappearing up its own arse with posters quoting and slating early posts.

She separates 'stupidity, hypocrisy, Stalinism and poor personal hygiene', only one of which is a personal insult and a mild one at that, which 'any left-wing columnist' expects from the 'vitriol' 'insults' and 'death threats' which women journalists endure, and 'campaigns of intimidation' designed to drive 'businesswomen, women who play games online and schoolgirls who post video-diaries on YouTube' off the internet.

It is quite clear that she thinks one is a professional expectation and clearly suggests that the other is targeted specifically at women. Straight white males don't have to worry about campaigns of intimidation or death threats do they, Dawkins?

I posted a few of those comments, Puffin, as I'm sure you're aware, and notable by its absence is the suggestion that the victims should just 'get over it'.

Can you find any comments where posters say that they should?

"It has already been pointed out that men are more likely to be victims of violence and homicide than women"

It's already been pointed out, that doesn't make it true noblegiraffe.

I don't know about the murder rates are, but if you factor in domestic violence and sexual assaults and rapes (which are also violence) women are no less at risk from violence than men. In fact I think it might be more. And yes, if someone threatens you with rape or wishes it on you, it's a hell of a lot more likely to come true than a death threat. Also I've been reading the mencallmethings Twitter tag, and quite a few of the women posting have actually had their rapes which they have spoken about used against them by men. So there's a new angle that the misogynists have come up with.

I didn't expect you to find the rape threat threatening to you, it's not directed at you is it, so why would you feel threatened by it?

The point is that there is a group of men who think that rape and threats of rape are reasonable tools to keep women in line, to silence us and to punish us if we do something they don't like. That's a problem. It needs to be addressed. Specifically. Not "oh it happens to men too". That's not moving the discussion along, that's just inserting distractions.

She's saying straight, white men don't get attacked because they are straight, white men. The attacks also do not reference their sexuality or skin colour and do not involve rape threats.

Funny you don't like people quoting, ZigZag. Wasn't 'the author of the article just looks like a publicity machine' one of yours?

Are you really still picking apart what Laurie Penny said and judging it noblegiraffe.

At least out in the wider internet people are talking about the hatred some men are directing at women and are bringing it to light and addressing it constructively. A conversation has been started and luckily it isn't all about nitpicking what Laurie Penny said and what's wrong with it.

Does Richard Dawkins really get threats wanting sexual torture inflicted upon him?

"I should be made to fellate a row of bankers at knifepoint"

I'd say he doesn't.