"A woman's opinion is the miniskirt of the internet"

[HedleyLamarr]

I posted this in Feminism [brave emoticon], and someone has suggested putting it in AIBU.

So, I was sent a link to this article in the Independent. Your thoughts/ideas are much appreciated .

MNP - posts like that I precisely why I don't use twitter or Facebook much anymore - you will never stop people saying disgusting things about other people - it's bad enough on here with posters wanting to kill their MIL and set fire to the Tesco delivery man ( and this site is moderated !) - I think we have to accept that there's an awful lot of very violent people around who use the internet as some sort of release. Yes it's terrible that women get targeted in a sexual way ( on top of the violence ) but it's not going to stop anytime soon because the entire world is on Facebook and/or twitter - could you keep up with 7billion people?

I"m not dictating noblegiraffe, I'm observing what happened. You do what you like, I can still say it's crap.

You're right though, I missed that last line. She should have been clear and said free of bigoted abuse. Because that would be true and then maybe her point could actually have been addressed rather than nitpicked.

I do find it odd when a group of women write about the rape threats and sexual abuse they receive online, and a big response to that is "but men get abused too". Seriously the question should be why do some men feel so hateful that they need to write out detailed descriptions of sexual violence they want to see inflicted on women.

PP - specific threats should of course be passed to the police. I'm sure they are already.

Extradition only exists between countries with specific agreements, as I'm sure you are aware.

PP - twitter isn't the only medium used to post abuse on the internet.

No apology for accusing me of inventing it, then, thunderbolt? Thought not.

Apologies to you noblegiraffe.

no noble but twitter was prevalent with LP as MNP posted specifically above

Agreed re extradition - just pointing out that's the mechanism as you seemed to imply with "even if they are traceable, there is no guarantee that they are in the same country as you. What then, for the prosecution?" that there was no way of prosecuting from afar so I didn't think you were aware.

Ooh apologies have started - how lovely.

Maybe Agent ZigZag and Squeaky and Worra will be back on to apologise to Eleanor for accusing her of being a pervert for daring to restate the vile comments made to LP.

Look at all the faff with extraditing Assange, PP. And that autistic kid who hacked the Pentagon. I suspect trying to extradite someone isn't that easy and in the case of writing nasty emails, not worth the diplomatic hassle.

Thank you, thunderbolt. I have already posted that I wished a different article could have been put up for discussion in the OP and that LP has muddied the waters.

But I couldn't let her 'woman-only' stance go uncorrected. Unfortunately, feminists took this as a 'what about the men' line, when that is usually used when the reference to men is unwarranted. In this case LP herself referred to the men.

Most of the people attacking LP aren't going to be abroad.

Yet again this seems to be a distraction from the main point - that some men feel so angry at a woman's opinion or a woman having an opinion that they issue rape threats.

No apology from me. It is a tactic from certain posters that I have seen used on many threads. Repeatedly posting the same graphic words and phrases is just a very odd practice in my view.

If I dislike a term, and consider it offensive to read, I will normally adjust and reword it to make it less or a trigger for the posters who may not wish to keep seeing it, if I want to refer back to it, not keep ramming it into every post I make, as if that may force people to change their point of view.

I am sure it will be seen again, and again and again.

She hasn't muddied the waters. You had the whole article to address noblegiraffe but instead you chose to pick on one line. That's your perogative, but it doesn't detract that women are being intimidated off the internet by men who feel that verbal sexual violence is an appropriate tool to use against them.

Has this now gone from a campaign to stop internet abuse to a campaign to protect women from sexual threats on the internet to a campaign to specifically protect Laurie Penny from sexual threats on Twitter?

I don't think I said it was easy did I! But as with CEOPs and prosecuting grooming from abroad countries can and do work things out with enough political will. Companies would not be doing business on the internet if they were not legally protected. The internet is no longer this wild west frontier in legal terms and hasn't been since the late 1990s (WIPRO initiative as well for example)

Exactly, squeaky

Did you call someone a pervert Squeaky? That's not very nice.

thunder - detailing the hate mail that men receive isn't to minimise the sexual threats that women receive, it is merely broadening the issue.

This point has also been made a few times on the thread I believe.

No thunderbolts it was Worra who was throwing accusations of being pervy around

Squeaky's view was: "Eleanor, do you and the other feminists get some sort of sneaky thrill when you type these things.. I ask, because it only seems to be the feminists who seem to repeatedly type out things about "cocks" etc..."

But that's its effect noble giraffe.

In fact there was a huge amount of minimisation about what Penny was talking about at the very start of this thread. So actually it's difficult to believe that you're not aware of how "it happens to men too" minimises the effects of sexual violence and threats of sexual violence have on women.

She's talking about violent rape threats and at the beginning of the thread people are talking about how she can expect criticism or that Jamie Oliver gets called a fat tongued cockney bastard so men get just the same.

I mean seriously rape threats have a very specific purpose against women. Given how many women have been raped or sexually assaulted, or have been afraid of it in their lives (not all women of course but the threateners won't know that) they are using it specifically as a silencing tool. It's working too - Natasha Walter and Linda Grant both say in one of the articles quoted that they don't write on the internet anymore because of the threats. We're also talking about a minority of women in the first place. It's not as if women have been any kind of equal treatment at the journalistic table. Women generally aren't allowed in, but those who do have to deal with men who want to see them raped? WTF?

Well that's not very nice either. So women can't talk about threats made against us and other women and the abuse some of us have been subject to, because we'll be accused of getting "sneaky thrills" out of it. Ugh.

Thank you for posting that LeninGrad it's refreshing and more than heartwarming to see the number of men shocked and horrified at that mencallmethings hash tag in the same way I and other posters on this thread feel -

SethDMichaels: Male friends: to understand what "privilege" means, go check out #mencallmethings & recognize what you don't have to put up with to speak.

Tom Tomorrow: Women live in an alternate universe, and not in a good way. #mencallmethings depressing, but not suprising.

Scott Madin: If you're a man, & your reaction to #mencallmethings is "but I don't do that!" ask yourself?what DO you do? Do you stop it happening?

Darren Moore: You think that we're well developed as a society, equality is a reality and the world is a great place and then you see #mencallmethings

Casey Monroe: The terrifying thing to me about #MenCallMeThings is that as a man, my first instinct is STILL to disbelieve what I'm reading.

Craig Sivrag: As a sexist in reformation (constantly, because unlearning your entire childhood is hard) I can appreciate the posts in #mencallmethings

Jon Byler: @nelsonpants @sadydoyle the reason i am a feminist is that I love women. #mencallmethings reminds me why I am sad to live in our society

Can't see any men on twitter at the moment "wailing" but what about the level of anti-male sexual abuse?

Most just seem saddened that their wives, daughters, friends etc. have to be subjected to this and a lot recognise that this is something they just don't have to deal with.