to be very unbothered that an EVIL hoard of (shock, horror) GYPSIES are coming...

[BeyondLimitsOfTheLivingDead]

I had a request to join a group on facebook a few days ago, "say no to the gypsy camp in ".
I ignored it, thinking, "yeah whatever, random facebook scaremongering".

Today, three teenage boys knocked my door with a petition, to stop this (apparently it is real) camp being built near enough on my doorstep.

But I just dont care.

AIBU to not be bothered by this? Or naive?

At what point are we allowed to generalise about travellers? I have had horrible experiences with three different camps in my life. In total that'll be over 100 travellers.

Why would you want to generalise about Travellers?

Because IME they have some common traits which might be worth commenting on in a thread like this. I haven't because I don't know whether my "sample" is statistically significant.

There is no reason to think that they will expand on the legal site a la Dale Farm , so how can that be a legitimate concern?
Because I have already said, this is a legal site.

And I'd appreciate it if people didnt claim I was council-estate bashing. I made it quite clear in the OP and my subsequent posts, I live here. And I like where I live.
But a lot of the people here are long term unemployed (therefore not paying any more tax than your common or garden traveller) or drug-addicts/alcoholics (just as likely to run off with you staffie or your roof tiles). That is just fact.
And as I've also said, as far as I know, no-one has their own negative experience to base their views on.

So what is that if not racism?

Sorry, its fact that they're unemployed/drug/alcohol addicts. Not fact that they are going to run off with the roof tiles!

• grovel Fri 28-Oct-11 18:25:59

At what point are we allowed to generalise about travellers?*

In my opinion never is the answer to your question.I am married to a Romany gypsy,none of us has ever been in trouble,I have three dc,s,all working, paying their taxes.Lets face it there are some unsavoury charachters in all races,so until you have met each and every Romany gypsy and Irish Traveller in the country,then you cant generalise.

Stripey -- Travellers are a legally recognised ethnic minority and any speech that identifies them or singles them out in a negative way is considered racist speech. You can believe whatever you want to but you can't single them out as [insert negative here].

Grovel -- If you think they have common traits then you are treating them as a group and not as individuals. Why do you think it is important to point out characteristics you believe they have?

mathanxiety - your reductionist approach seems absurd. Nobody would be able to comment on anyone or anything. Do you personally know every mother on the planet? If not then don't make any comment on mothering?

I am not constructing or buying into a stereotypical 'image', I am talking about my own real experiences. I happen to live in a place where many travellers live and also pass through in large numbers on occasion. I personally know lots of travellers and have had 30 years of dealings with them. There are plenty of people who hold racist views about travellers - I have even written to the local papers complaining about it erupting at a public meeting a few years ago. But to impose silence on those who have real concerns about the problems they experience and know will continue to experience as a result of traveller behaviour is wrong, IMO. If the OP didn't want to sign the petition that is up to her. If the OP doesn't think a site near her home will cause problems then, as I said in my original post (which was deleted by MN) she'll find out soon enough.

depob, well put.
I've said nothing on this thread. I've simply asked math when my experiences become allowable. Apparently I have to meet every traveller on the planet.

No Grovel, you just have to learn to read. You don't have to get to know every single Traveller on the planet before making a comment on 'them' -- I havent said anything of that sort. You just have to ask yourself before posting 'Does this thought of mine really need to be expressed?' or 'What do I hope to achieve by posting it?'

Debop -- Racist speech is speech that identifies a particular ethnic or racial group (not a group such as 'mothers') when making negative comments. The accretion of such comments on a thread such as this becomes an exercise in demonisation. That's not reductionist. That's what it is.

When you darkly hint that she will 'find out soon enough' you are contributing to the demonisation of Travellers, and to stereotyping.

grovel I dont think anybody has said that your experiences are not allowable,but you yourself said your experiences are with about 100 travellers,well there are approximately 300,000 Romany gypsies and Irish Travellers in this country,so your experiences have been with approximately 0.03%,too small a percentage to state that they have some common traits which might be worth commenting on in a thread like this.I have no problem with people recounting their bad experiences with travellers ,it is when they start stating that all travellers must be bad because of the experiences they have had.

I would also like to point out that a great number of Romany gypsies have settled,received full education and hold mainstream jobs,why should they be tarred as rogues and thieves because of the minority who are.Who knows where you will encounter a gypsy or a traveller who has settled,when you go about your everyday life,in fact my Romany gypsy niece is a primary school teacher so may well be teaching children of some of the people on this thread.Gypsies and travellers have received a good kicking recently because of the Dale Farm lot,its not fair to those who have worked hard and made something of my life(I,m only up typing this now because ds has gone to start a 12 hour shift).The trouble is that a good hard working family dont make good reading in our sensationalist nedia.

I think it must be remembered it's not the people/race themselves that people object to but the lifestyle ie a large number of people pitching up in caravans on the edges/in towns.

With other races there is absolutely no difference bar skin colour. We're all the same. People of all races live and work together just fine. The vast majority of people don't even notice race or ethnicity(obviously there are some exceptions).

The problem with the term 'travellers' is they're supposed to travel and don't want to live within a community but have their own instead. Now if that generalisation is regarded as racist the term "travellers" is a non term imvho.

To tar people as racist who object to their community being subjected to what can feel like an invasion is very wrong and PC gone totally mad. People don't object to the race but the lifestyle. Some people try to twist this and it does nobody any favours particularly imvho the travellers themselves.I think if both sides listened and compromised this issue would improve hugely.

I also think personally those that give travellers a bad name need to be dealt with more far swiftly and severely with perhaps a 3 strikes and you're off the land law. If this happened the travelling community would have to take responsibility for those causing problems themselves.I think police/social services shy away from communities and it's wrong.

If travellers want to be treated the same they should be dealt with in exactly the same way as the rest of us particularly with regards the law,school truancy and child welfare(as these kids are under 18 and deserve the same rights as other kids under 18).

Their whole ethnic identity is bound up with their traditional travelling life and their extended family-centeredness and social organisation (which has never involved constant travel but instead moving in order to follow seasonal work or live close to the parents in the case of young couples); objecting to their 'lifestyle' is like objecting to their accent or language or the sort of clothes they wear. You can't do it for other groups either (like Sikhs, Hasidic Jews, etc.) When a group is organised along extended-family lines as the Traveller community is, it tends to mean that they see a demarcation line between themselves and others. The family component is an essential part of their culture. That is why they see it as important to stay together.

It is really up to the police or social services to treat Travellers the same as everyone else; if they don't then that is hardly the Travellers' fault. They don't control what the authorities do or how they are treated by them. If there is a perception that they are untouchable by the police, social services, etc., then questions need to be asked of the police and other authorities, but the perception needs to be examined first.

As far as schooling goes, the Travellers on the whole have come a long way even from the circumstances of 50 years ago, when very few ever attended school. They didn't see the need and they were not made to feel very welcome. Now Traveller families with children tend to seek a place to stay for the school year.

There is certainly a need for dialogue and listening on both sides. That's why spreading stories about experiences with Travellers which have the effect of focusing on the negative will get us all nowhere. In order to move forward there has to be a willingness to identify common hopes for the future and not become mired in endless playgroundesque rounds of 'they started it' / 'it's their fault'.

LOL

Gutless.

Math I disagree.Other groups have to modify their 'lifestyle' to fit in with society. There will be muslims who favour sharia law,forced marriage etc. We have other muslim friends who continuously have to fit in and marry their beliefs with society as a whole.It's just taken for granted.

People need to remember local residents are not travellers so under no obligation what so ever to accommodate the traveller lifestyle if it has an impact on their own.

You can't have your cake and eat it. If travellers want to be accepted more they need to integrate more end of.

Re police and social services.If police and social services have a hands off approach due to feeling intimidated it is the travellers fault as much as it theirs. Both should be held to account.Either way I think the police/social services are a tad lazy with this issue and cause a lot of the bad feeling.If residents felt complaints would be dealt with swiftly and seriously they'd be less afraid of groups(which as we've seen can grow to be large regardless of the law) of travellers turning up on their doorstep.

I actually agree with you Math about the fact that most of the tales of travellers are negative, and it's refreshing when people say they live near a site of Travellers and they hardly know they're there, and they're all good friends.

I do think Travellers segregate themselves, but it's probably a fault of both sides because settled community are wary of them because of negative media, and Travellers are defensive because of how their reputation precedes them.

I definitely agree that talking between all communities should happen, and a few myths about Travellers could be put to bed, then maybe integration between everyone could begin.

I agree that the police are negligent about Traveller bad behaviour, which again boils down to the segregation and the fact that police are reluctant to go into what can sometimes be an unknown situation i.e the Travelling community being very secretive, thus making them defensive and on the surface intimidating for outsiders/police!

MrsHeffleyI actually agree with a lot that you say,but the problem comes when the settled community will not accept the traveller lifestyle when it doesnt impact on their life.The media have given the travellers a bad name and unfortunately all travellers suffer because of this,even the ones who live quietly and work hard.

Muslims are not an ethnic group. Islam is a religion, and definitely not a 'lifestyle'. Most religions accept the need to follow the law of the state where their followers live. 'Give unto Caesar' etc.

(Incidentally, there are at least five Sharia courts in Britain, in London, Manchester, Bradford, Birmingham and Nuneaton, that are run by the Muslim Arbitration Tribunal, a body whose rulings are enforced through the civil courts under the 1996 Arbitration Act, and there have been efforts by some sections of the Muslim community to introduce Sharia law elsewhere - some Canadian province decided against it a few years ago after contentious debate. Back in the 70s, the right of Sikhs to wear their turbans while wearing the other elements of uniforms required for their jobs was upheld.)

The local council is under a legal obligation to accommodate the Travellers' culture because the Travellers are a recognised ethnic minority. Their ethnicity is defined largely on the basis of their culture. I don't think Travellers want to be 'accepted' more. They just want to be left alone and given the benefit of the doubt, especially when it comes to planning permission to set up communities, or to be provided with sites they pay rent to use.

I really scratch my head at the idea of police feeling intimidated. From 1968 until the 1990s the RUC policed NI fairly effectively in the teeth of far more hostility than Travellers or probably anyone else in Britain could ever imagine. Policing in a hostile environment can be done and has been done in the UK, by a UK force.

I think the idea of police quivering in their boots at the thought of dealing with the Travellers is part of the harmful myth that precedes them and so often scuttles efforts by anyone in either community to try to live peacefully alongside each other. This particular myth is especially harmful because it tempts residents to take the law into their own hands and form the sort of quasi-vigilante groups the OP has seen circulating their petition and mounting the FB campaign. The myth also works against the best interests of law and order because it contains an element of scorn for the police too. There has to be a basic element of trust in the police, that they are willing and able to enforce the law.

bubbles, If the travellers round here didn't impact negatively on my life I would have absolutely no problem with them.
mathanxiety, you might scratch your head but in my experience the police are extremely reluctant to take any action when it comes to travellers. Are you a human rights lawyer?

I think it's wonderful that you have had no unpleasant experiences with travellers and see no reason to object to them. Especially if, as I understand it, this is a legal site that is being proposed.

As it happens, I have had frequent illegal encampments on the education authority's playing field behind my house. Underage kids drive quads and vans around, and there is a certain amount of aggression and abuse directed at neighbouring residents. By chance, local petty crime increases. When the illegals eventually get moved on, there has always been a large amount of fly-tipping left behind; orange propane cylinders seemingly liberated from roadworks, garden and building waste left behind, household rubbish and broken toys, and a surprising amount of human excrement. Luckily the council tax paid by myself and other legal local residents pays to clear it up.

No doubt your site will be different in every way.

are you on about this estate.

www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/gwentnews/9332596.Violence_flares_during_Bettws_gipsy_meeting/

www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/gwentnews/9332596.Violence_flares_during_Bettws_gipsy_meeting/