to think childcare costs for 3 primary school aged children are too expensive to make working worthwhile?

[pingu2209]

Now that my last child has started school I decided to look to get back into paid employment. To pay for 3 children to go to breakfast club and then after school club, during term time, the fees will amount to £1350 a month. During school holidays the fees will amount to £1690 a month. On the basis my husband and I will try to take our holiday over a chunk of any school holiday, any salary I earn needs to cover the £1350 childcare costs PLUS any costs for parking and fuel for commuting.

On that basis I need to earn £25k/yr to break even.

I have applied and applied for jobs and can not get anything near the amount I need to warrent me working.

Due to my husband's salary we won't get any support for childcare costs.

I am so pissed off. I really want to work. I am worried that I will have bugger all pension and to be frank, we could really do with more money because everything is going up in price.

As I have a degree, a masters, a professional dimloma and 13 years work experience in marketing that is my preferred option. However, as I haven't done any paid work for 5 1/2 years nobody is interested.

Am I unreasonable to think that it is actually not financially viable for a mother to work if she has 3+ children?

Frustrated? Yes. But angry? Who are you angry at? Whose fault is it?

Who are you angry with exactly. Child care can't be free. People have to pay their staff etc.

I agree. I don't understand the anger.
You had 2 children and worked. You decided to have a 3rd child and give up work. Thats fine- but it was your choice. Other option would have been to stop at 2 kids, or stay in your 40k job and just take the financial hit short term and now that your kids are all in school you'd be a lot better off. You must have realised that taking over 5 years out of the workplace would make it very hard to get back in. I know there are some unknown factors- none of us knew how hard the global recession would hit- but even so, thats the same for us all, none of us have a crystal ball

You would be better off using your energy to do whatever training 'you need to update your skills. You need to put yourself out there and sell yourself. And focus on the other benefits of working, rather than expecting to make masses of money immediately. Look at the long term

I understand your frustration but if you enjoy time out to spend with your children when they're little I think you have to forget about having a full on 'career'. I've got 4DCs all at school now and the only way I got back to work was to find a term time only job. You could use your time now to retrain as a TA for example. The money is rubbish but little or no childcare costs and at least you're out of the house working.

It is frustrating, but I remember reading a poster on hear saying that childcare was too expensive for her to work the way she would prefer to work. I agree with the suggestions here about looking for work that is part time, or maybe evenings or weekends. I do sympathise though, I was a SAHM for 3 years and it was hard to get back into the work place.

This is why jobs in schools have such shit pay, because so many of us can't afford childcare for a job with a normal working pattern.

I sympathise OP. I have a similar problem.

Has Xenia been in yet to tell you you should have got a better career set up before you had DCs and then you'd be able to afford a nanny and private schools and an island ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

taokiddy, unless a TA works in the same school as her DC, there will be childcare costs. Most TAs I know are on sight from at least 8.15am, and leave at around 4pm.

So that's a couple of hours childcare per primary school child a day.

There is always a tipping point as to how many children is too many to make working financially viable. In the OP's case, she has discovered it is 3 primary children. For some, on a low income, it will be one baby, for others it will be two pre-school DC, etc.

30 years ago before and after school clubs didn't exist. My mum had to ask other parents to take me to school have look after me until she finished work. (She paid them). I think we all now not only expect there to be easily available child care, but for it to be cheap as chips. And the government does help out families who really want to work and don't earn a lot, as the OP stated.

So, OP, if you really wanted to work you would have to take a temporary financial hit to get back into paid work. An annoying, but true, fact for anyone who leaves the job market for 5 years, for what ever reason.

YANBU

but this is your bed, you made it, lie in it and be happy!!!!!

on site !

This is the main reason I have only had 2 children as it lessens childcare costs. I am also finding it hard to re-enter the workplace after 5 years out. You've got 2 choices get a term time only job or else train/study so that you can earn £40k+ to make it worthwhile to work.

I think you make a good point lynette.

A lot of this is about expectations. Since the govt started subsidising childcare through the free hours for 3 year olds, tax credits etc, its given some people unrealistic notions. Childcare does cost. That's a fact of life. But tbh, people accept having to pay a lot for their house, holidays, car, gadgets etc - so why not childcare? Having your children well looked after is more important than most things anyway.

Dont get me wrong, I think it would be great if childcare were more accessible, and I certainly think all formal childcare should be tax deductible. Its shocking that if you run your own business you can set all sorts of things against tax, yet when you pay for your children to be looked after (ie a direct cost of working) you can't.

However, all things considered, there is more availablity of childcare than ever before, and at least people on low incomes do get help.

I was interested in the poster who pays a local woman £30 a day to do the after school care for her children. Definitely the way to go for the OP. I bet if she really searches she could find someone who will take her children to school and pick them up after for a flat rate of £30 per day. That would be £150 per week for a local mum who wouldn't otherwise be working. It may be someone who is a local cm already but has room for older kids, or it may be worth approaching a local mum who could get registered to do it. That would be £600 per month childcare costs - ie about half of what the OP is saying the school clubs would cost. It would definitely make working worthwhile.

OP - when I went back to work 8ish years ago to do basic office jobs, like filing and data input and taking messages I earnt for 18 hrs a week - about £150.00 (hardly paid tax and had no childcare costs). I was 42, had been out of the workplace for 8 years (had previously earnt 100,000 in the City) and had minimal qualifications and all the other mums with smart degrees turned their noses up and said you wouldn't see them doing that.

After two years I went full time and ended up with less than £100 pw because of the increase in tax and having to take on an au-pair but it was to support my future career. I have since got professional qualifications and an MBA. So, at 51 I have been employed for 8 years, have up to date knowledge of my specialism, have made lots of pensions contributions, am more in tune with the world, earn a middle management professional wage and am poised to get a better paid job back in the private sector. It was hard work and I had to go back to the bottom again and swallow my pride and invest in my future.

Most of all OP, it took COMPROMISE because I really didn't want to go back to gruelling 12 hour days in the City.

I wonder if maybe there's less "unofficial"/unqualified childcare around now than there was. I'm not the expert, but I am sure that all the regulation is pretty new (last 10-15 yrs or so). I know some people still do do cash in hand unofficial stuff, but I imagine there are fewer of them as they're scared about being caught.

I've been in this boat for years. Actually my 'second' child turned out to be twins (although I wouldn't change that for the world). In our case I became a sahm, dh earns only just enough to keep us afloat and we do without a lot of things.

I sympathise, but there you go...you're not the only one.

"Now that my last child has started school I decided to look to get back into paid employment. "

OP, if I had a penny for every time I see that sentence here on MN I'd be rich

so so many posters assume they can easily get a well paid, interesting job when their youngest starts school and then the reality hits

YANBU, childcare is very expensive and sometimes it doesnt feel worth it working

you must do what suits you as a family

I'm fortunate that as a nursery nurse, I can do supply for the local LEA. It does mean I don't get holiday pay and no sick pay but I am at home for the holidays and I only pay for 4 hours care each day I work and everything over that is mine. But there are times when there is no work and other times when I am too ill to work. Last year I broke my foot, was off for 5 weeks, then had 2 lots of emergency surgery meaning I earned very little. Money was very tight as I still had to pay the childminder. But getting out and being me has worked wonders for my mind and makes me feel much happier. But there are so many jobs I can't do.

YABU

If you were a working mother when you had two children, surely you knew the cost of childcare before you chose to have a third?

Nobody forced you to have three children, you could have realised that you wouldn't be able to afford childcare for three children, I can't believe you are coming across as if this is some kind of complete shock out of the blue.

You could afford to work. You just can't afford to work and have three children. You can't expect to be able to have it all. If you wanted to work so much, you should have stopped at two.

First off, YANBU to feel thoroughly fed up with this situation. The UK has the highest childcare costs in Europe and the reality for working women is that for those without family help it is extremely difficult to continue working. 4 in 5 women rely on family to provide childcare for work.

I'm assuming from your OP that your DH earns too much for you to qualify for WTC help with childcare? What about vouchers? Though I think there have been changes to the rules on these recently and again this is often not worth doing unless your're earning more than national average because it impacts negatively on tax credits. Failing that, could you nanny share with another family needing help? Once you have two children or more, the cost of a nanny is comparable with CMs/school clubs. For three children the savings are even higher.

Finally, if you can just about make it work (even if you're running at a slight loss initially), it may be worth doing because of the longer-term benefits. As someone who has really suffered from this for the last 5 years, I really sympathise, but now that I'm reaching the stage where there is light at the end of the tunnel I'm really glad I kept working.

Good luck, and I hope you find a solution.

Was a SAHM for six years and found a part-time job (25hrs pw) when DC3 started school. Am earning much much less than I did when I worked full-time, but am able to pick up children after school, and my oldest DC will now look after the youngest in the holidays until I get home just after lunchtime, following an early start to my day to make this possible. My DH changed his work pattern to be able to do the drop off in the morning, so I could do my hours and get to school on time.

Flexibility is the key, for you and DH, and also a bit of thinking outside the box on childcare possibilities. Compromise and a lower income will mean you can work but still spend quality time with the children. A friend spent over a year looking for a term-time only job and eventually found one. The time she'd spent volunteering in her DCs' school was seen positively. A full day in childcare is no fun for your children. There will be lots of after school activities and chances to hang out with friends, which they'll miss out on.

Scholes34, your comments about children in childcare all day ( or pre and post school) are unecessary and judgmental, your arrangements sound good for your family, but people come to lots of solutions and sometimes pre and post care is better for the family as a whole, eg if it enables the partner who would otherwise work short or no hours to bring home much higher pay. Also, some schools offer wraparound care where children can go to after school activities and then on to the after school club.

These decisions are hard enough without people being bitchy about it.

Is it really the case that 4/5ths of working families rely on family for childcare? Sounds really high.

Thinking outside 'the box again- could you seek out local students who may love the opportunity to earn extra during their long holidays? Dh and I had one very tricky summer when our kids were primary age; our leave didn't tie up neatly and we had a number of days, scattered throughout July - august where we needed childcare. We used the 20 yr old dd of a friend who was home from uni. We paid £50 a day which I felt was good value considering this was more than one child. As she came to our house, and it was babysitting rather than regular full time childcare there was none of the red tape of finding a registered cm. Also, when your children are this age, they don't need full on care every minute, it's not like watching a toddler or changing nappies. Tbh this girl spent most of the day playing with them, or sitting in our garden refereeing their games! She'd take them to the park, or along to the shops etc and make their lunch but tbh if you are at home with school age children its not full on every minute. She loved doing it and felt it was a good deal for £50, and most importantly the kids loved it too, they thought she was 'cool' and at their age was preferable to going to a cm who would probably have had her hands full with much younger kids too.

Ask around or put out an advert. Loads of uni students come home in their hols, they also tend to have longer hols than school ones so should overlap nicely with school holidays. They are usually desperate for money too and jobs are scarce for them.

Dozer - you think my opinion is judgemental and bitchy because you obviously don't like it. I do think 8am til 6pm in school/wraparound care is too long. It's my opinion and the reason why my work arrangements are the way they are.

I've made many compromises to enable this to be the case, and one of those compromises is in the area of pay. There is nothing judgemental or unnecessary about my comment.

Can I just say something about 'childcare' being no fun- it is fun as in schools, they get to hang out with their friends at breakfast and after-school club. Mine go together and hang out with their friends, doing craft-activities, playing outside climbing trees/scooters/skipping, have a bouncy castle, use a Wii, play games, do Lego, in other words all the stuff they would do at home, only at school! If anything, the problem is that it's too exciting and they get tired. But they are with their school-friends.

Perhaps all after-school care isn't like that, but I've found it's like paying for an activity and encourages friendships accross the school ages, it's not the same experience as going home with mum/dad, but it's not a form of torture either.

Childcare can be fun...yes. On the other hand the child has no choice in it so if it's not fun what can the parents do?

They can do nothing because often they have no choice either....however I don't think Scholes was being bitchy in the slightest.

And anyone who is truly happy with their childcare arrangements wouldn't find it bitchy surely?

No, what I don't like is your saying that " a full day in childcare is no fun for your children", referring to other people's children. Fair enough, make decisions for your family, we all take different decisions, but don't make assumptions or judgments about others' choices or their childrens' experiences, that's just not helpful.