to think childcare costs for 3 primary school aged children are too expensive to make working worthwhile?

[pingu2209]

Now that my last child has started school I decided to look to get back into paid employment. To pay for 3 children to go to breakfast club and then after school club, during term time, the fees will amount to £1350 a month. During school holidays the fees will amount to £1690 a month. On the basis my husband and I will try to take our holiday over a chunk of any school holiday, any salary I earn needs to cover the £1350 childcare costs PLUS any costs for parking and fuel for commuting.

On that basis I need to earn £25k/yr to break even.

I have applied and applied for jobs and can not get anything near the amount I need to warrent me working.

Due to my husband's salary we won't get any support for childcare costs.

I am so pissed off. I really want to work. I am worried that I will have bugger all pension and to be frank, we could really do with more money because everything is going up in price.

As I have a degree, a masters, a professional dimloma and 13 years work experience in marketing that is my preferred option. However, as I haven't done any paid work for 5 1/2 years nobody is interested.

Am I unreasonable to think that it is actually not financially viable for a mother to work if she has 3+ children?

I live in a 3 bed semi - I can't fit an au pair in!

What dozer says.
I think one of the issues about giving up work completely when your children are 'pre- schoolers, is that it can give you a false sense of what's going to happen when your children are school age. I don't mean you personally OP, just that some people in this position assume that they will waltz back into work and make loads of money. Whereas if you work when your children are 'pre school, you just accept that childcare will take up all of your income for a few years.

Tbh I don't think your childcare costs are excessive overall. The breakfast club sounds a lot, but the all-day holiday care at £25 per day is peanuts! You'd be looking at at least double that each day for a child at nursery- all year round!

Anyway, I would suggest looking for a childminder for before and after school and stick with the holiday club for school hols. A cm will work out cheaper. And think about the long term. It will be hard to get back in after several years out- lm afraid great paper qualifications, degrees and post grad degrees etc wont set you apart these days. There will be plenty of other women similarly qualified who have stayed in the workplace and you'll be competing against them.

I would definitely look at 'how to get yourself into work asap even if it means taking a financial hit short term, because it will be more than worth it long term

It sounds really tough. Can DH work his hours to make them more child-friendly, ie start later or finish earlier? Not all jobs are 9-5 - many workplaces operate flexitime, and it may not be difficult for one of you to work 7-3, 10-6 etc. The public sector and universities are very good for this. Many employers are happy with you working from home, too.

What about a childminder after school? Have you looked into that?

It won't be easy getting back in after such a long break and with 3 kids - but then I'm sure you were prepared for that. It might be that you take what you can get for now and hope that after you've worked there for a while, you can ask to work flexitime / work from home 1-2 days a week. Any potential with where you worked before you had kids?

If you struggle to find a job, would there be any qualifications you can do to make you more employable? Or any other jobs you'd be interested in?

Don't despair - there will be a way. Best of luck.

10 hours a day of care is an awful lot for some kids though and then when you add on the travelling from when they leave the house to when they actually get home, you could be talking 11hrs.

I imagine by the time they've changed out of their uniforms and told you about their day, it'll be time for bed.

I have three schoolage children and work part-time. Working part-time can work out cheaper as your tax allowance means you take home more pay. Get the job first - many companies will allow you to start at eg, 10am. There is term-time only work - try the 'Women Like Us' website (I don't work for them honest), which specialises in flexible/family-friendly work. I use a nanny after-school - it's cheaper than afterschool club for three children plus more flexible in that if I'm late, she can stay late.

Like someone else said, consider the cost of childcare in terms of your total household income. Bear in mind that your salary will increase, you'll earn a pension etc - there are lots of benefits to working beyond immediate salary.

Voluntary work will help boost your CV and working for free often means you can set flexible hours so there will be no childcare costs. Best of luck - the job market isn't easy but there is work out there, particularly in the south-east.

An aupair/home help sort of person on that sort of wage doesnt need to live in. You could employ two people, one for mornings, one for afternoons. That way you would have cover if one was sick, or on holiday.

Children can share a bedroom, even if it is a double below and single above? Even if 2 sexes, I wouldn't be put off, especially if the eldest is only 8.

Our special needs Aspergers child has ended up the most independent child possible at aged 15, I have no idea what needs your son has, but the best thing I accidently did for our child was to make him deal and cope with his special needs and make his own decisions.

You need to think positive. You also might have to adjust your ideals for work.

Sometimes I wonder why I work...then realise it's for my pension.

It will be easier when the DC have left home...I think....

Stop focussing on the negatives and use the energy in finding something that suits. You chose to have three children so moaning now that its expensive to fund childcare wont change anything as you must have known this when deciding to have a larger family.

The childcare costs dont all come from your wage either, they are shared between both adults in the house. Given you've been out of the workplace for some time you must have known you would not waltz back into a great paying job and it will need some time to prove yourself.

I understand your situation is difficult and you must feel trapped. I gave up a very good career because of logistical nightmares with childcare and trained to become a childminder instead.

Would this be something you could consider? You can immediately save yourelf all your own childcare costs and hassle and take on 3 pre school age children if full time mon-fri 8-6 at £450 per week (scottish rate - may be able to earn more down south)

Many people round here are resorting to this to find a way through the nightmare of childcare.

Pingu the Maths doesn't add up.
You say you worked when you had two children, and it was only when it became three that it became financially unviable.
But childcare costs for the two must have been - what?- £40/50 per child per day - and with nursery that's usually all year round. You still have to pay even when you take annual leave and your child isn't attending.

How come you could afford to work with two pre schoolers, yet now you have 3 school age children you claim you can't?

Also, without being rude about it, you chose to have a 3rd. we all have to make decisions about our lifestyle and cut our cloth accordingly. Some people would love 3 but stop at 2 because of financial issues.

If working is important to you, then surely you did the sums before embarking on number 3?

Fabby, you say "Work part time then in school hours so you don't need childcare so what you earn is your own.

That's the way forward for now"

If only things were so simple. Do you know how difficult it is to find a job like that, and if you do manage to find one how many other people will apply?

OP - have you thought about a part time housekeeper who could come to your home before and after school ? Even in the SE you wouldn't need to pay anything like what the school will charge you.

Right, have just seen your other thread on the same subject pingu.

The sums still don't add up.

You say you earned 40k when you had the two children - but full time care for two pre schoolers is still more costly, even when you're earning 40k, than out of school hours care for 3 school kids. Find a childminder for the before and after school hours. This will work out cheaper than the club.

Split yours and your dhs leave so that as much of the school hols are covered as possible. I know you'd probably prefer to take leave together, but its entirely normal for working parents to do this to get by. Then use the (good value imo) holiday club for the days you can't cover.

There is no way on earth you can possibly be worse off than when you worked with two babies. It's pre school childcare which is most costly, because you're not getting any hours 'free' - once they are at school you get around 6 and a half hours free every day.

School hours jobs are like gold dust, but even just working a 30 hour week can ease the pressure on either mornings or evenings. It's a very big jolt to go from not working at all to 8-6 every day, that's a lot for children to cope with. You don't mention your DH's commitments (sorry if I missed it) but can he do his share of juggling too? If not it's a tall order for you to find a job that breaks a profit.

My advice would be similar to some of the other posters - look for a job that would fit in with your life better, there must be something that would work better that the straight full time option?

It is possible. I need to work full time (for financial reasons) and I was very worried about how I would cope when DS started school as his school does not offer anything. I am a single parent with no other help and I manage just by using a private after school club (as there is no breakfast club available anywhere unfortunately). It costs me £132 per month for a full time place (four days 2.50 - 6 and one day 12 - 6). I drop DS in the school playground at 8.40 and run like the wind to work, I work till 5.30 then power walk to collect him so I manage a full working week.

During the holidays I take leave and use the after school club which is about £100 per week full time. I take childcare vouchers from work of £175 per month which covers all my child care (as I pay the £132 each month then put the rest towards holiday care).

It is hard work but it is possible.

I'm a teacher on c £37k. Dh earns a bit less. We have 2 school age dc & 1 at nursery.

Tbh it's only 'worth' it financially because we don't have childcare costs in the holidays - otherwise it'd eat up most of one salary (pt nanny + breakfast club, + costs eg. travel & work clothes that wouldn't be there if one of us was a SAHP).

But I've always worked ft (shortish ML each time) & so I've kept my place in the employment market . I've seen colleagues take breaks of a few years, or go pt, & then when the kids are a bit older & they want to return/go ft again, they're competing with younger & cheaper NQTs. It's similar in dh's industry.

& I'm not claiming that I actually foresaw how hard it'd be to get back into work if I once stepped off the ride for a year or two - I just like my job, followed my selfish inclinations & fortuitously avoided the trap that a lot of my friends ended up in.

It's probably worth keeping an eye out for something that'd give you a toehold back in work, even if it's not immediately bringing in more than peanuts, for the reasons you've stated - pension, confidence, satisfaction...the system's stacked against parents, I agree - & it's not something people tend to be aware of before they find themselves in that situation.

How much does your dp earn? Why cant he contribute to childcare costs?

ravenAK - I am that person you talk about. I took 5 years out of teaching and it was hell trying to get back in. I did manage it in the end, after a year of volunteering and doing supply. I was lucky because dh's salary covered childcare during the year when I earned almost nothing. I am now just about breaking even after childcare costs but still think it is worth it, not only for the huge job satisfaction, but also because of the relaisation that the chilcare cost situation is not going to go away, and the quicker I get back onto the career ladder, the quicker my salary will rise and maybe one day I'll actually be a net contributor to the family finances!

Another point that people legitimately make is that you should only consider half of the childcare costs as your own. Your dh should bear half too. He is, after all, their parent equally.

In addition, I don't use after school clubs. 1) they work out expensive (I have 3dc too), and 2) I prefer for the children to be able to come home and chill out after school, have a friend round to play etc. I use early morning care, but that is free at my school, then pay a nanny £30 an afternoon to pick up, bring children home, supervise homework, give tea, then I rock up around 6. It works well here.

But I do sympathise op. I felt your despair a couple of years ago. But you mustn'e be short termist about it, and you must think a bit more creatively about the childcare - students are a good option, and will often want to up their hours over the holidays. They would brobably charge around £8-9 an hour. It's not impossible.

How much is your school charging for B&A school club? I've just worked out 3 DC for me would be £684pm. Obviously, because of school holidays it will be less in October, and Dec, Feb, April, June, July and August. (which I think is about £8,882pa)

But childcare during school holiday would cost me £300 pw X 10. (That's with me having 3 weeks holiday, and using an extra 5 days to cover training days/school Christmas concerts)

So a total of £11,882 pa.

So, after tax and pension, I'm not sure why I work....Oh, yes...for my pension! (And my tax if I were being cynical as to why David Cameron was so keen for me to work)

Could your husband go part time and let you work on the days he is not?

Also, aren't childcare cost going to be shared so they won't all be coming out of your pay.

Whichever pay the childcare costs come out of if they are more than the OP can earn the household is going to be worse off if she goes back to work so its valid to compare the cost to the salary she can earn. It doesn't matter who actually pays them.

The father working part time would only be worthwhile if the OP earns more than him - is that the case pingu?

I think you need to explain a bit more OP.

I still cannot understand how you could afford to work on 40k with 2 pre schoolers, yet you plead poverty now you have 3 in school and claim you can't earn enough to cover your costs.

An income of 40k is - what? About £2300 net income a month? And childcare for 2 pre schoolers must have been, say, £50 per day each = £2000 per month. And that's EVERY month, because you pay all year round, whereas with school holiday care you'll be paying just for what you need. So with your commuting costs, work clothes etc, you must have had very little left over then. Even if your earning capacity is vastly reduced now after having time out, it must surely be possible to find a childminder which will cost you much less than youve paid in the past?

TBH in hindsight, you would have been better off sticking to your higher earning job and just sucking up the financial hit when you had a 3rd child, because you'd have kept your pension going and would now be in a much better position.

There is no point being angry though. You made a choice to give up work, and now you need to focus your energy on regaining a foothold in the workplace.

Your school breakfast club/after school club seems very expensive. Our school is in Surrey, near the border with London and it is £3.75 per morning and £6 for after school club.

Yes, it's hard, but people do it and so could you if you decided to.

The household income may go down in the short term, but probably not by much. The argument that it's only "worth" women working if their initial salary covers childcare is short-sighted, and prospects won't improve with more time off. Pensions gap etc. And people with DC do get promoted sometimes, or move to better paid jobs at the same level in another organisation.

As for the commute to London, people do this too, I do a 1.5 hour commute with a 3yo and 1yo in childcare 7.45-6pm three days a week.Your DP could amend his hours to share the drop-offs / pick-ups. He could share the time off to cover illnesses etc. Is he supportive OP?

You could rent a local room somewhere for an au pair, may still work out cheaper than a nanny.

If you only want to do school hours, you could investigate possibilities locally and what they look for in new staff, then do voluntary work or study to put yourself in a good position to compete. Or consider freelancing in your old field or making money from doing or selling something different, eg utilities warehouse.

Working would be hard, but there're also financial disincentives and other risks in taking more time off.

there are solutions.

And also, your job, to you is not just about the money. it is also about self fulfilment, about keeping your career on track, about building up experience and a network, about a pension etc.

You may be out of pocket for a few years, but that money should come from BOTH your salaries, obviously!

And then when they are bigger, and once the oldest is 14 or so he can babysit the smaller ones for a bit, you are :
-still in employment (instead of having a 15 year gap)
-building up pension, network contacts etc.

• not resentful.

Also, there may be cheaper solutions than the one you have just found. A friend of mine has asked an unemployed girl in the village to be a part time nanny for a year. It seems to work out well.

With 3 kids, an au-pair (or even nanny) coudl work out a lot cheaper than a nursery/CM.