AIBU regarding Ex and contact

[giantpurplepeopleeater]

OK..... was going to put this in lone parents but there is not much traffic and I really need some honest opinion about whether I am BU or not.

Ex and I splt nearly 3 months ago. Since then I have been trying to talk to him about setting up a proper and regular access pattern for DS, who is only 10 months old. He has literally ignored all my requests. I even resorted to writing to him to try and make my point.

The reason he is so reluctant is he works shifts. These can change around a lot, and he works every other weekend. However, he does work for a public sector organisation that does family friendly shifts, and previously he has worked set shifts where he was in the same every week. However, he doesn't seem to want to ask this time round.

So far I have been trying to juggle everything so that he can see DS when he has time off work, but he won't commit to anything - not even having DS for some time every other weekend. The days of the week change every week, so do the times. Sometimes he doesn't confirm anything till just a few hours in advance.

I am back at work now and finding this totally unworkable. Between my work arrangements and childcare for DS I can't seem to juggle it all for changing contact patterns every week.

So I asked Ex to speak about it again and he refused. So I spoke to the Childrens Legal Centre, and they said that I would be within my rights to set out a pattern of when Ex can see DS, and its up to him whether to make arrangements so he can do this. Again he refused to talk to me.

So I have set out 2 afternoons in the week and every other weekend (sat morning till Sunday afternoon) where Ex can have DS. And told him it is up to him if he wants to take DS then. WIth my work these really are the only times I can be flexible on.

He says I am stopping him from seeing DS. So am I? AM i really being unreasonable? Or should I be juggling things every week so that it fits in with Ex's plans?

I have explained my difficulties to Ex in a letter. It goes into quite a lot of detail about why the current situation doesn't work for me.

I need to work to support DS and I, and I need to have childcare sorted for the times that I am in work. I can't keep messing the childminder or work about!

I explained this at length and we agreed to give it a go, but I said that without advance notice and even with it sometimes I just would not be able to work it so that DS was available at the times he wanted. He agreed to go with this, but the minute the forst time came where I had to say 'no I'm sorry DS has a hospital appointment and a swimming lesson' he went mad telling me I was stopping him seeing his son.

It feels like he is constantly using opportunities to get aggro - hence the wanting to put together a proper contact agreement so we didn't have to conitue having arguments over it!

So how far do I need to go to make sure DS has a relationship with his dad - and how much is up to him?

I feel like I'm working very hard and turning things upside down to be agreeable to Ex and just getting it thrown back at me all the time!

Why will he not agree to every other weekend if he is off every other weekend?

What time do you work until? Could contact not be every other weekend and a couple of hours a week, after you've finished work?

How far away does he live? Can he get to you after work?

Choc....

I do not know why he won't agree to every other weekend. His response when I asked whether he would see DS this weekend was 'well I need to have a life too'.

I have offered for him to come over after work in the evenings to help with tea and bath/bed routine. He has so far refused. (DS is only 10 months so goes to bed aroudn 7)

He lives less than half a mile down the road, so yes he should be able to ge to me fairly easily.

Oh dear, he's being an absolute pillock then and you are not being unreasonable. You have been more than accommodating by the sounds of it.

My H also works shifts and has had a contact order worked around his shifts. He gives his shifts 6 - 12 months in advance, they rotate so he has given his rota and his child's Mother has been told to organise contact around them. Days change every week, which isn't ideal, but he has been in this job for years and it pays the bills including the child maintenance.

Hearing about your ex makes me angry. He should be wanting to organise when he sees his child. It must be very frustrating for you. Could you suggest mediation? If he wont agree, then you have no alternative but to sort yourself out and give him the opportunity for contact. It's up to him then if he takes it up or not.

WilsonFrickett Sat 22-Oct-11 20:44:24

And tyr - [big fat snog emoticon]

Wilson,

Should I feel afraid?

OP,

I suspect there is a bit of bloody mindedness in this that may pass. On the other hand, I find this difficult to take if it's true (and I've no reason to doubt you) "What I cannpt understand though is having a whole weekend off - Friday, Sat and Sunday, and not wanting to see DS even for a couplpe of hours as he has something else to do."
That would be the difference between him and me (and the other dads I come across) I would be hoping to pick the child up on the Fri as soon as I finished work and return on Sun evening or Monday morning.
If it is just a mixture of awkward work patterns and a bit of contrariness, is there any chance of mediation?

Sorry Chochobnob, X post re the mediation.

I suggested mediation..... he said no. It feels like i need to be firm about things to actually get him to consider doing something about it!

I'm also in the YA both a bit U and a bit NU.

I think that asking for 2 weeks notice of when he'd like to have DS is fair enough in light of his shift pattern. I don't really get why he can't have DS on the days you work...CMs not going to mind if DS is there or not if she's getting paid anyway is she? The 'hospital appointment and swimming lesson' shouldn't prevent contact either...could DS's Dad not have taken him to either/oth of these things?

I imagine that he sees you as trying to control his relationship with his DS (which doesn't seem altogether unfounded as you are trying to dictate days/times which suit your working life, ignoring that it doesn't suit his)...and has dug his heels in as a result. That's petty and unhelpful, but the more that you push for him to do what you want, the less likely your DS is to have a good relationship with both his parents.

Don't lose sight of what you actually want...your DS to be happy, secure and sure of the love of both of his parents. Mediation would be a good first step, although it may well be an expensive step if either or oth of you chooses to drag it out. If you want to avoid it taking months to get anywhere, you may have to loosen the reigns a little.

If he actually refuses mediation, requested by a solicitor, then he'll end up losing out in court.

Is there any friends/parents/siblings etc who could try to find a solution?

I have a very similar problem with my Ex-P, except that his employer refuses to give reasonable notice of his shifts. His employer gives out the rotas on a Friday, they run from Monday to Sunday. This has changed just 3 weeks ago - before that he was on a set shift pattern.

After a thread on here, I went to see a solicitor and got some legal advice. I was told that as the baby is so young (mine is 8.5mo, and still bf), that the contact I was offering was fine. As Ex-P couldn't commit to set days off in the week, the solicitor told me that little and often is best for dc under 2yo. So I have offered him to come round after work on Tuesday and Thursday evenings to spend a couple of hours with DS3 before he goes to bed - those days are non-negotiable, if he doesn't come on Tuesday, he cannot come round again until Thursday.

I have also been told that for daytime access, I have to be a bit flexible, WITHIN REASON. If he phones me on the Friday and asks to have DS3 on Monday during the day and I already have plans or an appointment, I am within my rights to say no. However, as he gets two weekdays off a fortnight, I MUST make DS3 available for 3 hours on at least ONE of those days each fortnight.

HOWEVER - the courts WILL understand that you have to arrange childcare due to your work, and that generally, childcare has to be on set days. And also your child is entitled to spend time with BOTH his parents when they are not in work. I have an idea that if you were to set days that your ex could see your dc, and he refused those days - HE would HAVE to prove in court that he had asked in writing to his employers for set shift patterns, and that they had refused BEFORE they made any judgements. It would also look bad for him if he had refused to go to mediation.

I get very pissed off with the fact that the courts seem to see the father's job as most important, and the mother should drop everything to 'facilitate contact'. Erm - why the fuck isn't that the FATHER'S responsibility? If I went back to work - I would have to arrange my working hours around available childcare and stick to set hours, so why should it be different for the father?

YANBU giant, I think we've chatted in Lone parents about this and your ex has reacted the way I suspected he might, given that he has so far not made seeing his son a priority. I can only repeat you need to be firm and stick to responding to the accusation of stopping him from seeing your DS, by stating you are NOT stopping him, he is choosing to not see his son on days he is available for contact. You have thought about when your ex isn't working, and you are trying to work with him - he is the one working against you and your DS right now. The reasons he is doing this could be many fold - angry at you, and the situation, spite, guilt etc. Who knows?

If you think about this logically, if he genuinely feels you are preventing access, he has the route of court to go down to remedy that. If he again rejects mediation, preferring to go straight to court, you can demonstrate that you are making your son available for contact. That is what they will look for, and as long as you can demonstrate that, your ex will end up looking like a prat for not actually seeing his son when he could have but chose not to. A couple of hours notice, when you already have plans, isn't enough for him to 'prove' you are preventing access. You won't ever agree on this with your ex, but if he genuinely wants to be a proper dad, spend time with his son, then he'll eventually realise that he has to actually make time for him, and the best way to do that is to actually work with you, not against you.

Good luck.

BUT why should the OP have to pay for unused childcare - if the father wants to see his dc when the dc is meant to be in paid for childcare, then it should be down to the FATHER to pay for that. You wouldn't pay for childcare if you weren't at work - why should the OP be out of pocket to 'facilitate contact'. NO WAY would I agree to that, unless the father was going to pick up the costs involved in an arrangement like that.

The OP is categorically NOT trying to 'control' her ex's access to their ds - she is arranging her PAID FOR childcare around her work shifts as her ex refuses to get involved with firming up arrangements. As a working single mother, you cannot keep chopping and changing, you could lose your childcare place. If her ex wanted to be a full part of his child's life, he would understand that he needs to work around the childcare by requesting family friendly hours at work, and that the OP is trying her best to work around BOTH of their working patterns. He obviously doesn't see the OP's job as being equally as important as his own.

The OP has offered frequent after-work access, which her ex is turning down. She is offering every other weekend - which he has refused. He wants it his way or the highway, and if that was me - I'd be telling him to grow up and understand that the OP is offering pretty much what he would get in court - not being funny, but how is a family law judge going to look at a father, who when offered every other weekend, refuses and claims "I need a life of my own too". I would eat my shorts if the OP got to court and her ex didn't get told he could have access every other weekend only at this age, and evening contact at the mother's house after work once or twice a week. And any sane NRP that wanted to see his dc, rather than just to control his ex, would take what is being offered to them in this case.

Surely this selfish wanker of an ex could take his time to "have his own life" during his weekday days off that keep changing, rather than on the every other weekend that he has been offered access for that are SET days off work??

OP, your ex is a grade A twunt, and is just trying to control you, rather than accept the perfectly good access arrangements you have offered. At 10mo, he would be LUCKY in court to get every other weekend and one weekday overnight - which HE would then be responsible for getting your ds to the CM after (I know this, been there before!). You are actually offering over and above this by offering him access to your home to do bedtime with his DS.

I imagine that he sees you as trying to control his relationship with his DS (which doesn't seem altogether unfounded as you are trying to dictate days/times which suit your working life, ignoring that it doesn't suit his)...and has dug his heels in as a result.

Sorry, ballstoit, I completely disagree. The OP isn't trying to dictate anything. She's tried to engage with the ex, to work together on how to fit time with the DS in for both of them, seeing as they both work and both need to have time with their DS. The ex here is not engaging with her at all. You cannot take the view that you won't be 'dictated to' by anyone about when/how you see your child, but then do absolutely feck all about being pro-active in organising that. If the ex in this case doesn't want to be told when/how he sees his own child, he needs to do more about that than leaving it until a few hours before he suddenly finds himself at a loose end - which is exactly what he is doing here. Even if his shifts are all over the place, unless he works for a completely unreasonable employer who gives little notice of shifts, there is no excuse for leaving arranging time with your own child as late as possible. Having the attitude that the OP is pulling all the strings and the ex has no say, can only be changed if he actually does something about it. He is not doing anything, and refusing very reasonable attempts by the OP to get things more structured for everyone's sake. The OP here has clearly attempted to work around her ex's work schedule as she has stated he has every other w/e off, and that's what she has suggested as the main time her son is available for access. That's not exactly her working to her own agenda, or ignoring her ex's work demands is it?

In court, when I self represented, the court tried their best to fit contact around my ex's "work". I pointed out that he didnt' work, he had a hobby, but that it was MY job that provided for the dc. They still tried to fit around him, and the fact that he claims Job Seekers yet told the court he had work was not their problem. They deal in family matters only. VERY frustrating and unfair.

OP you are doing everything you can, maybe get him to tell you the dates he can do and see if you can work around it, but you are doing all you can. This is an arrangement that has to work for several years to come. You need to be able to plan around his contact. Small children like routine, this is where the courts will listen to you, but they are not always as reasonable on other reasons.

You are also entitled to a 'life' you know.

It sounds as though he is not so much interested in seeing his DC as in messing you around. Document every time you have offered contact and he has not taken it up for reasons other than work eg he 'wants a social life too', and let the wanker take you to court, he won't look very good.

Hunty the OP wouldn't be out of pocket...she pays for the childcare either way, whether it's used or not.

I thought it might be helpful for the op...and more importantly her DS...to try to see things from her ex's point of view. I know I find it helpful to remember that the more I push my ex for decisions, or firm plans, the longer he makes me wait or pisses me around. I shouldn't have to deal with him behaving like an annoying child, but he does and if I carry on pushing him, my DC miss out on contact (and I miss out on a break).

Clearly in an ideal world the op's ex would sort this out in an adult and amenable way. So far, so unlikely. I was suggesting that the op reigns in her attempts to control her ex's time their DS, as I believe it is reducing the likelihood of them coming to a fair agrement.

Or she can just carry on banging her head against a brick wall, they can both try to out control each other, and the little boy who needs a relationship with both parents will suffer.

Sorry, but if he wants to BE an adult parent, then he will have to act like one. Now that my EX-P is realising that I won't let him control my entire life, funnily enough, he has backed down and agreed to the access I have offered - I told him to take me to court if he felt I was being unreasonable.

Yes, I have compromised by making sure that DS3 is available one day a fortnight at VERY short notice unless I already have something planned, but that isn't often - and as ex-P gets two weekdays off a ft/nt, he can see DS3 on the other one if he wants to see him - that only happened when Ex-P's days off that week were Mon and Wed, he wanted to see DS3 on Mon KNOWING full well I go to bf group on a Mon - so he got told Wed. At first he complained saying he was busy that day, but he DID come on Wed in the end - BECAUSE HE WANTED TO SEE HIS SON. Turns out he was going to be busy having lunch in a cafe with his retired mother, who could easily have re-arranged (but wouldn't).

It's NOT them trying to 'out-control' the other - it's the mother needing to be able to work access around both her Ex's work AND her work. Why should the mother always aquiesce? And WHY THE FUCK should the OP have to pay for childcare that SHE ISN'T USING when it may affect her TC's, or for any reson^? She would be paying for a service she is not using. I would NEVER agree to that - in my eyes, it would be leaving me out of pocket. If my Ex was willing to compensate me financially, I would accept, if he was willing to set contact days so that I didn't NEED to book that day in childcare, then I would accept. But I would NOT accept having to pay for childcare I wasn't using so a feckless, childish bloke can get what he wants when he wants it, with no inconvenience to him when it would be financially inconveniencing me.

Ballstoit - If your ex pisses around like that - making you wait LONGER just because you need an answer - then you do what I do in that situation - you set contact, and he can chose to take it or not. In both circumstances where I have done this - my ex-H and my Ex-P have both (eventually, it took Ex-H 6 months though) come round in the end, and either they arrange contact in advance, OR they accept that I have made plans and decided to set the access days. Ex-H did it to me this half term - didn't bother talking to me about when he was going to have DS1, so I phoned him 2 days before the holidays started, and told him that as he has DS1 for the first weekend of half term, he can bring him back to me at 1pm on Wednesday as I have made plans for the later half of the week. He was unhappy (apparently he wanted to do one day here, one there, which we have never done before, and he didn't bother asking me BEFORE I had made plans), but TOUGH!

Any father worth his salt would grow the fuck up and realise that what he wants is NOT the only important thing - otherwise, tbh, I think that they are a BAD example to the children, and if they CHOOSE not to have as much contact - it's their loss, not the dc's, they have been given opportunity (and neither me nor the OP sounds UNFAIR in what is being asked), they have CHOSEN to put their social life above their dc. Great parenting!

The thing is though Hunty, I care more about my DC than being the winner.

I have tried setting contact and saying take it or leave it...h chose not to take it and didn't see them for 3 months. I don't rearrange my plans on his say so, but I try to avoid making plans until I know when he wants to see them (unless they have a birthday party or something else which can't be done at a different time). When my DC are big enough to make their own decisions, I'll leave them to sort it out (or not) with him. Until then, I'll try to make them available when he wants. Because I believe it is better for them to have a relationship with him, and have contact with them, than to not see him at all. A belief that is backed up by psychological research, so I'll stick with it.

I DON'T think that I own my dc, and am quite happy to have a reasonable level of access - but although I am a lone parent, I DON'T just sit in most of the time with my dc's - we make plans, go out, meet friends, travel to see family etc. these things CAN'T just be rearranged at the drop of a hat. I don't expect to ALLOW my ex to see his dc - I expect my exes to be GROWN UP and reasonable. If they can't be, then it is not MY job to run around after them - I am no longer in a relationship with them.

I have to arrange my work hours and my social life around my children, not my own needs - so do they. It's called being a parent and having children.

It's NOT more acceptable - but I repeatedly ask my Ex-H when he would like access. HE would like t tell me on the first day of the holidays, I need to make my plans to travel to see family in advance when they are not working. I cannot accept that he gets to have his own life and do what he wants while at the same time not making any plans myself (thus stopping me from doing anything) until my dc are 18yo.

That might work if my Ex-H was allowed to talk to me on the telephone - which he isn't - his current partner will not let him, and I refuse to discuss anything with her due to the way she has treated me in the past. (Threats to kil me yadda yadda yadda all because I refused to give ex-H a quickie divorce because she was the OW and I wanted her named in te divorce papers etc).

We get to speak alone very very rarely - I have to communicate by grabbing him on the rare occasions he is in the supermarket alone - so I cannot phone OR email, and face-to-face is once in a blue moon. He is only allowed to talk to me if HE rings ME. Which he doesn't. Does that mean I should NEVER be allowed to make plans, because I am unable to contact him?

Why is it such a hardship top accept that this OP has bent over backwards to try to facilitate contact for her dc, but it just ISN'T working. I would NOT be doing what you are doing, ballstoit, because it fucking SUCKS to be that child that KNOWS that your father (or mother in my case - my mother was the NRP) has got 'better things to do' than to see you on regular days. Than never knowing when you were next going to get to see your NRP, or if they would let you down at the last minute because going to the pub or whatever was more important than you are. THAT fucks children up too. I PROMISE you.

Setting regular contact that the NRP refuses to stick to fucks children up no more or less than bending over backwards to chop and change access to fit in with an NRP that can't be arsed to put that child first. Either way it is the child that ends up fucked up. However, one of those fucks up the RP's life more and makes the RP a more lonely, miserable parent than the other - a less miserable RP means they are more able to deal with the emotions from a dc who has a crap NRP whichever way you cut the cloth.

MJ's situation is a little different - her partner has a contact-blocking ex. My opinion of that is that the contact-blocker should lose residency and become the NRP. What I am doing is NOT contact-blocking. It is offering a VERY reasonable amount of contact, but on SET DAYS. No blocking of contact, I NEVER make plans for the days my dc are meant to be with their NRP's, but I FULLY expect to be able to make plans for my family on the other days of the week.

So, MJ, are you saying that you feel your partner should be able to say, ring his ex in the morning, and expect to have access that afternoon, and every afternoon he feels like? That his ex shouldn't EVER make any plans, just in CASE your partner wants to see his child? Why does HER life get to be controlled like that, yet your partner can decide when he wants to do something with his DD and when he doesn't? But the RP can't,because she is 'contact-blocking' if she is OUT at the time your partner wants to see his DD? I don't get whether you are saying your partners ex is GENUINELY contact blocking (i.e. setting a contact time then making excuses why the dc can't go, or not being in when your partner is meant to collect them), or just refusing to have a no-holds barred, drop in when you want attitude. (NOT contact-blocking, IMO and the courts' opinion).

At least with set contact, EVERYONE knows where they are. I know that during term-time, DS1 WILL be at Ex-H's on a Wednesday night, and Every other weekend Friday through till Monday. I KNOW that DS1 will be at Ex-H's for half of every school holiday - but trying to make plans is like drawing blood from a stone when I can't TALK to him. Do you book trips away by train or spend MORE by doing it last minute? I personally book train tickets 4-6 weeks in advance as it's the only way I can afford it - so if he refuses to communicate, am I to never see my family?

I can see how I might be seen to be UNWILLING to bend over backwards to try to make my Ex-P & Ex-H see their dc - but this is after having been in abusive relationships with both of them, and refusing to let them control ANY of my life any more. The dc DO have access with their fathers, if their fathers request a particular day, say for a family birthday meal etc, I have no qualms about that even if NOT on a set contact day. As long as I have 3-4 weeks notice, not a problem, 99% of the time. But I am not going to put my life on hold for my abusive Ex-partners.

It's fucking hard for me to explain to my 7yo DS2 that HIS dad only has him overnight one night a fortnight, whereas my 9yo DS1 goes to HIS dads overnight for between 5 - 7 nights a fortnight - but it's not that DS2's dad has been offered any LESS contact than DS1's dad - he has just not chosen to TAKE UP all that is offered to him. My fault? NO. I will NOT accept the blame for the fact that DS2 is upset by this. It is his twunt of a father deciding that getting rolling drunk like a teenager when he is 36 is more important than getting to have a mid-week overnight with his son. NOT MY FUCKING FAULT. At least DS2 GETS to stay overnight one night a fortnight - his dad has refused to have our 9mo baby overnight until he is at least 3yo...

I have tried setting contact and saying take it or leave it...h chose not to take it and didn't see them for 3 months.

Curious about this ballstoit What is it about that scenario that makes you responsible for your ex not seeing his kids for 3 months? Why do you take responsibility for a decision your ex makes about seeing his kids or not?