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AIBU?

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Original poster

To be getting really fed up with my students' racism/sexism etc.

87 replies

yellowraincoat · 19/10/2011 00:23

I work in adult education, teaching English as a foreign language. Sometimes I love it, but recently I've started really really hating it.

One of the main problems is that a large number of my students say racist, sexist, homophobic things and I never know how to handle it. Sometimes, when they say something overtly racist, it's easy to know what to say, but it's so insidious that a lot of the time, I'm completely flummoxed and just let it lie because I feel it's not my job to educate them in being reasonable human beings.

An example from today: "I saw an Indian guy on the tube today beat his wife. He wasn't poor-looking, he was well-dressed".

For a start, I can almost guarantee the guy wasn't Indian, but probably Pakistani or Bangladeshi - for another, it's totally irrelevant to the story what nationality he was. But in my class, no matter how often I tell them, they say "Indian" for all countries in South Asia and "Chinese" for all countries in East/SE Asia.

For another thing, the idea that poor people are violent really annoyed me.

Almost every day, I get comments about gay people. "Oh I hate going out in Soho, it's full of gays."

But it doesn't seem to matter how often we have the discussion ("how do you feel when people think people from your country are all the same?" and so on) they will come out with something the next day or week. Then in 2 months I'll have new students and they'll start the same process all over again.

I need a new job.

OP posts:
Original poster
yellowraincoat · 22/10/2011 11:48

Oh and I would have preferred them to say "the man hit his wife" not "the Indian man". How is his race relevant?

OP posts:
EllaDee · 22/10/2011 12:13

It is nothing to do with the OP's 'particular views on what is right and wrong'!

Do you not know that we do have laws about workplaces and discrimination?

Whatmeworry · 22/10/2011 13:10

Do you not know that we do have laws about workplaces and discrimination

Yes, but I also know how they work. The OP is not being discriminated against, she is being offended. Different thing.

Btw OP, did you know that sign language for "Chinese" is touching the corner of your eyes, and Chinese sign language for Europeans is round circles with your fingers.

EllaDee · 22/10/2011 17:43

No, not a different thing in this case. She's not trying to impose strange, quirky personal views - she is trying to ensure her classes are free from discrimination, not just for herself but for other students.

I've heard teachers be cautioned for not coming down hard on discriminatory language in their classes - it's not trivial.

kirsty75005 · 22/10/2011 19:37

To be fair, I live abroad and almost everyone here uses (for example) English and British and synonyms. It irritates me and I always correct people but it's clearly not racism, it's ignorance. So I don't think using "Indian" for someone who is actually Pakistani is racist so much as ignorant. I suspect that the OP would probably make similar errors - without being animated by any racist feeling - when describing people from a part of the world that is less well known to the British than the Indian subcontinent. (Though she might avoid bringing it up when not necessary).

Original poster
yellowraincoat · 22/10/2011 19:37

That the sign language for Chinese is touching the corner of your eyes doesn't mean it isn't racist. It's like saying "did you know the word "chinky" exists in English?" to prove that the word "chinky" can't be racist.

As I think I've said, yes I am offended. I feel hurt that my students, who I generally like and find interesting and intelligent, can make such crass generalisations and assumptions. They assume that everyone in the class is heterosexual. They assume that everyone is white. They assume that none of us is offended by racist or sexist language.

I'm going to leave this topic now.

Thanks for the views.

OP posts:
Whatmeworry · 22/10/2011 20:20

That the sign language for Chinese is touching the corner of your eyes doesn't mean it isn't racist

I suggest you take it up with the global deaf community then, and while you are at it why not complain about the Chinese deaf using a round eyed sign for Westerners.

Original poster
yellowraincoat · 22/10/2011 20:47

Yes, and while I'm at it, I'll take it up with the British/American/Canadians/South Africans/Australians and so on that they have offensive words for various people of various colours.

I will also take it up with every nationality that has ever offended anyone.

OP posts:
spottypancake · 22/10/2011 20:55

Re the gays in Soho thing, I would gently inform them that:

People in the UK don't mind whether a person is heterosexual or homosexual and it is considered rude to say things like the Soho comment. Since these remarks seems to be fully acceptable in the countries your students come from, then they aren't to know that what they've said is offensive.

TethHearseEnd · 22/10/2011 21:41

Whatmeworry, the idea that sign language cannot change signs is incorrect.

The sign for 'gay' was altered a few years ago so as not to cause offence.

Oh look. Here's an article about it. And it mentions the sign for Japanese people.

So, perhaps somebody did take it up with the 'global deaf community' after all. Or at least users of ASL.

babybarrister · 22/10/2011 22:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Whatmeworry · 22/10/2011 22:24

Oh look. Here's an article about it. And it mentions the sign for Japanese people

Oh look, that article is from 1994....

And Oh look, now here is a far more recent study showing the Chinese had no obections to the sign for them.

And you seemed to have skipped over the bit about the Chinese sign for Westerners being to make round eyed circles with your fingers? Which, oddly enough, Westerners do not object to (yet - no doubt you will, now?).

TethHearseEnd · 22/10/2011 22:48

The article was from 1994, which shows how long ago ASL was changing. Sign language is organic, like all languages.

Your article merely states that 'a group' of unknown number of Chinese visitors to Britain were not offended by the sign. Hardly conclusive evidence that the sign is not offensive to entire nations Grin

My point remains that sign language can and does change; citing a particular sign's existence that has been rejected and replaced by many sign language users as evidence of it being inoffensive is rubbish.

[...]some signs in sensitive areas are changing in BSL, as more deaf people become aware of implications of sign choice, and more minority groups have control over signs used to refer to them

Oh look. That's from your 'study'.

TethHearseEnd · 22/10/2011 22:48

"And you seemed to have skipped over the bit about the Chinese sign for Westerners being to make round eyed circles with your fingers? Which, oddly enough, Westerners do not object to (yet - no doubt you will, now?)."

Oh yes, I skipped over that bit because it's a red herring.

HTH.

Whatmeworry · 22/10/2011 23:21

The point you are missing is they haven't changed the sign for Chinese since 1994, and recent research semes to suggest that about the only upset people are the professionally offended hearing people, who of course don't usually use the language.

You may also be fascinated to know too that they changed the sign for Indian from a spot on the forehead to tracing the whole Indian subcontinent - including (shock! horror!) Pakistan and Bangladesh. I trust you will be writing to them and asking them to trace around the aforementioned countries when they trace the Indian subcontinenet in the air in future?

HTH :)

EllaDee · 22/10/2011 23:27

What's your point whatme? I can't work out if you're going for the 'Deaf people can be racist too' shocker or the 'Not all people of one group agree what's offensive to that group' stunner. Either way, I think the front page is taken ...

TethHearseEnd · 22/10/2011 23:41

Yeah, I'm struggling a bit too... although I am loving the cliches. They just keep coming, don't they? Grin

"The point you are missing is they haven't changed the sign for Chinese since 1994, and recent research semes to suggest that about the only upset people are the professionally offended hearing people, who of course don't usually use the language."

'Recent research'- do you mean that page in the book you linked to? Or do you have some actual conclusive research?

Also, who are 'they'? Many sign language users have changed the sign they use- contrary to your earlier assertion that, well, nobody has.

What's your take on the sign for homosexual (as per my original point) BTW?

"You may also be fascinated to know too that they changed the sign for Indian from a spot on the forehead to tracing the whole Indian subcontinent - including (shock! horror!) Pakistan and Bangladesh. I trust you will be writing to them and asking them to trace around the aforementioned countries when they trace the Indian subcontinenet in the air in future?"

This is not what we are arguing about. Why on earth have you brought that up?

Original poster
yellowraincoat · 22/10/2011 23:58

I'm telling you my student was offended by people making that sign. So what's your take on that?

Erk, said I was leaving, yet here I am spending my weekend arguing with the same people I spend my week arguing with. SIGH.

OP posts:
EllaDee · 23/10/2011 00:10

I think most people do get it, yellow. It's a minority view that these thing are ok - honestly it is.

Whatmeworry · 23/10/2011 08:44

What's your point whatme? I can't work out if you're going for the 'Deaf people can be racist too' shocker or the 'Not all people of one group agree what's offensive to that group' stunner

It's very simple - offense on your part does not imply that you are right, that the people you are offended with are wrong, or that those on whose behalf you are offended agree with you.

Whatmeworry · 23/10/2011 08:47

I think most people do get it, yellow. It's a minority view that these thing are ok - honestly it is

No, the minority view is yours - I used the Chinese sign language as an example of the lengths zealots will go to to impose their views.

TethHearseEnd · 23/10/2011 08:51

Whatmeworry, please link to the research you mentioned which shows that nobody is offended by the (old) sign for Chinese people. And the one for Japanese people for that matter.

Because it seems to an outsider, that the sign being replaced would suggest that enough people considered it offensive for it to be altered.

Ditto the sign for homosexual, which you still refuse to comment on.

Cheers.

Whatmeworry · 23/10/2011 08:57

I'm telling you my student was offended by people making that sign. So what's your take on that?

That one anecdote is not data, especially given the documented research from the British Sign Language people I pointed to.

Erk, said I was leaving, yet here I am spending my weekend arguing with the same people I spend my week arguing with

I honestly think you are in the wrong job, OP.

TethHearseEnd · 23/10/2011 09:14

"That one anecdote is not data, especially given the documented research from the British Sign Language people I pointed to."

Arf at 'documented research' Grin

Errr... it's a paragraph in a book which refers to an unspecified number of Chinese visitors to the UK who (apparently; they were not even quoted) said that they were not offended by the sign. Hardly conclusive.

Now. Should I use my powers of invisibility for good or evil?

EllaDee · 23/10/2011 11:01

whatme, you don't seem to get it. The OP has a responsibility to make her workplace free of discriminatory language. Everyone except you seems to agree that, yes, some language is discriminatory and should not be used. So the OP needs to make sure her students know not to use this language in class.

You're acting as if you'll get a prize for being the most thick-skinned person here, and that's missing the point.

It's similar to Health and Safety - no-one I know has ever been daft enough to trip over a flex on the floor, but it'll still be the teacher who gets ticked off if someone does trip and fall because she made the room unsafe.