To find Telegraph Poll: 'Should London Cafes Become Child Free Venues' offensive and discriminatory?

[greengoose]

AIBU to think that this poll, where currently 43% think children should be banned from cafes, is discriminatory and would never be allowed to be written about any other section of our society?
The article and poll can be found here: TELEGRAPH POLL
In the comments bellow there is an 'anti child' rant suggesting children should be unwelcome everywhere from small shops (which should have a no buggy policy) to cafes and galleries).
This has made me spitting bullets TBH, I cant believe the 'anti child' culture in this country sometimes (and especially in the capitol IME), I do understand people should keep their kids under control in cafes, but to turn that discussion into a 'ban kids' poll is downright awful....... the telegraph, which I dont support anyway, should be utterly ashamed.

Im not Slave im complaining the way the newspaper has turned something we can all agree with, ie, children should behave in public, we find it annoying if they dont, into an excuse to have a poll about whether to ban them. I dont disagree with child free spaces (obviously, Ive got two, and like a break), but there is a principal being missed that there is a basic discrimination at the heart of the poll..... if a drunk woman was causing trouble in a cafe you would ban her, not all women, the poll would be about the behaviour not the group 'woman' (do people really think I shouldnt be allowed into an art gallery with kids, or that costas should ban kids.... Im a bit upset). I think a poll saying children should be asked to behave in cafes is onething, not this though, surely?

Of course cafes couldn't afford to do this! The pub I used to go to a lot that was adult only - 14 and over - now lets children in before 9pm. I only go now if I am going after 9pm. Kids running around a pub screeching does not make for a relaxing atmosphere. And before anyone says, no there are not adults getting drunk and being noisy. Its pretty much a local pub - couple of drinks and a meal. The only adult I ever saw getting drunk and noisy was banned!

Similarly I now don't go to any local restaurants early evening. Its just too noisy with kids. And there are always some sitting quietly with their parents behaving. But there are usually some being really noisy or a parent with a screaming baby or toddler that they don't take outside.

So I can understand where polls like this come from and why people want places to be child free. But it won't happen because of finances. Just like pubs wouldn't go smoke free before the ban as they would have lost too much money - and m,any still did!

But people have voted. And almost half of people would support a ban. The paper is not calling for a ban, it is asking for readers views.

I get what you're saying OP, well 'ish' anyway. It shouldn't be the norm to ban vast quantities of society from establishments. Cafes wouldn't get away with banning fat people, smelly people, noisy people etc.

HOWEVER....

When I am with my DCs I am more than happy to go to the noisiest most manic eatery available.

BUT

When I am having a rare day on my own, I want to sit in a cafe which is soooooo quiet all you can hear is the cups clinking, the espresso machine whirring, and the newspaper pages turning.

I think no. 3 is spot on! And I am a childminder.

greengoose - I think the problem though is that an adult misbehaving will be asked to leave. Or other patrons will have a go - unless it is a really scary adult! Although people will glare, very few people will say something about badly behaving kids and very few cafes and restaurants would ask someone with kids to leave no matter how badly behaved their kids are. It could bring too much bad publicity.

So people end up feeling powerless. With feelings of powerlessness come anger.

I really get that, I just think that the newspaper have turned all our dislike of parents who cant/ wont control kids in cafes into an excuse to have a 'anti kid' pop....

Of course they shouldn't be banned but more owners should ask parents to leave who make no effort to control children. I hate seeing children being allowed to run riot in places like cafes

" I do think people have to accept that little ones will not always sit quietly and behave perfectly."

No I agree. Which is why you take them outside. I have stood on the pavement with a screaming baby, tantruming toddlers, etc because I don't think other patrons should have to put up with this. And if your kids can't ever manage for a short time to behave, then take them to mcdonalds or wacky warehouse.

Its just basic manners imo, but sadly lacking amongst some.

I think the newspaper is quite agnostic about it; it doesn't seem to be pushing a particular line.

It is the general public who voted who are showing there's a demand for child-free space.

I agree Lesley!

And nobody expects perfect behaviour from young children (nobody realistic anyway!) but that doesn't make it acceptable to let them run around and generally be disruptive

Oh boy.
I used to be a waitress in a local restaurant which catered to lots of new families. It was disgusting actually-mashed food everywhere, people changing nappies right there on the table, four year olds running past when I was carrying hot plates up my arm.
This was pre-ds and I remember saying to my fellow waiter:
"I have just one word-Babysitter!"
and he replied
"Well I've got one word too-contraception!"
We HATED them!
I take ds to cafe's now and cringe at the memory , but I am WELL strict, any nonsense is VERBOTEN, we leave the table immaculate, and tip big!

YABVU

Not everyone wants to bow down to pregnant women/mothers and I can't believe you're talking about an "anti-child" feeling in Britain. IMO it's one of the most childcentric and child-indulgent places in Europe.

I would have no problem with a certain amount of cafes being adults-only.

But thats the point, its an argument about parenting, not about kids, isnt it??? I dont want banned from Costas because some parents dont know how to act in public......I need Costas, I really do.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't get worked up about this. There are enough people out there who let their kids ride roughshod when out in public, that I can fully understand why so many people would not want them around when they want to socialise in peace. When I have a child-free moment, the last thing I want is to be interrupted by other people's terrors.

And it's always those who froth most at the mouth about this sort of thing who often have the least pleasant children to be around. I really think a grip is needed here - it's just a poll; not law.

And as for comparing the banning of children with Nazi Germany - read up a bit on history before you make such an offensive comment.

Northern - I am always shock the mess some people (with and without children) feel it's ok to leave in cafes and restaurants. Just before leaving anywhere like that I am normally found on hands and knees picking up peas ds has dropped!

I don't think it has to reflect just on parenting styles. It also reflects on the fact that children are supposedly welcome everywhere, and that they shouldn't be- adds to the idea that they should have no boundaries, be free and impose themselves everywhere- would do quite a lot of the kids I know good to be aware of the fact that there were some places who do not like them or their sticky hands quite so much!

Fair enough SLINK, I apologize for this, very hormonal.
What I was trying to say is that I think the article takes a generalization that we all agree with.... that parents should control their kids... and uses it to talk about banning all children in a poll. This is a discriminatory tactic. I do really think this is wrong and wouldnt be ok with other groups in society. That was my point. not that kids shouldnt behave in public, or that we dont sometimes need a break.

If you ran a business and had one group of people who regulary came in, created mess and chaos and put other people using the service off would you not want to ban them?

someone had a picture of a blackboard outside a cafe - it read

Unsupervised children given expresso and free kitten to take home

I have sat in a cafe where children of 2 or 3 have climbed the stairs to the next level, the parents or nanny are unaware of where there toddlers are and the toddlers where gone for around 10 minutes - wandering around upstairs being a pain

But thats the parents isnt it.... thats my point....

Comparing banning children in cafes to Nazi Germany? Really? REALLY? I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Get. A. Grip.

It may be the parents, but it manifests itself in the way the children behave. Remove the children and the problem is solved.

Look - it's just an opinion piece. It's not actually going to happen. I really don't understand why you're that mad you're 'spitting bullets' about this. I suspect you're a 'children must be welcome everywhere, including weddings' types, so I'm probably never going to really understand where you're coming from. [hsmile]

Ive apologized for that, I know it was crap, but thats not what I said, I said that the generalization of a whole group of society by the newspaper, and using something that we all agree with, ie children should behave, as a vehicle for a poll suggesting that a group in society can be judged by the behaviour of some, and therefore banned, is wrong, and discriminatory.