To think spelling and grammar can't be ignored

[busyhouseof8]

DS2 is in Yr6. He came home from school with homework for a 30 minute piece of writing to describe a friend.

I gave the usual talk about being careful with your spelling and punctuation only for him to say, "it's OK, Mrs P says she doesn't mind about any of that so long as she can work out what we're trying to say".

AIBU to think that actually learning spelling and punctuation is reasonably important? DH is currently sifting through graduates to employ, many of whom have excellent degrees but can't seem to spell for toffee or string a literate sentence together. His firm runs remedial English classes just so they can write a letter to a client that makes sense and will be paid for!

Parents' evening this week - should I question her methods?

Apologies for all spelling and grammar errors in this post..............

chill, I promise, I am usually the last person to give a shite how people choose to post on MN. But when people can't spell, punctuate, or use correct grammar and insist such things are essential to getting a good job, or are indicative of laziness and carelessness, I do feel my hackles rise. It is particularly daft to say that, if only children today were taught more rigorously as we were in the past, these things would become habitual - and to post with errors that clearly demonstrate that this is not really true.

miner and Ella,,,,,,allow me to have a bit of fun and make a semi serious point. It is trew that bosses do complane about badly spelt job applikations.
But being as they mite be gettting 100 aplications for a sollitary jib; they do knot have two much to complane about. We knned more jobbs; specially for the 16 to 25 yere holds. Awe thay cud end hup as a sort of lorst jenneration.

I have deliberately ballsedup the spelling without losing meaning. One way to learn spelling is todo a lot of writing. And take the spelling seriously. But there will always be some who dont get it. Like i dont get the working of a piston engine; or a padlocked bra;when I was a teenager. Hope you dont mind mehaving fun. Its cheered me up a lot.

on the serious side. Tis said Gadaffi is dead.

EllaDee: "The number of times people told me while I was growing up that I would be less likely to succeed given poor spelling skills is astonishing - and AFAIK they were totally wrong. I have done precisely the sorts of things for which I was told SPAG would be crucial, and lo and behold - nobody now cares in the slightest." But there doesn't appear to be much wrong with your spelling, so of course you will hold that viewpoint.

And: "I do find SPAG errors irritating (especially the ones on this thread, since my mind is on them!). It is pretty clear that several people who argue for the importance of SPAG, and who claim it simply becomes habitual to write correctly, make basic and irritating errors - so either it cannot be true that these things become habitual, or we accept as adults we sometimes relax our attention."

Well, of course, it's all about context. Given your arguments that you don't think people should be too fussy about spelling and grammar, I found it quite ironic that you should pick up on something minor I posted quickly late last night as I was trying to get to bed, eyelids drooping. Although, to be fair, you had the decency to admit you were harsh.

Likewise, someone pouring out their thoughts on a message board at home with a toddler at their leg clamouring for a biscuit, or having not had more than 10 minutes to themselves in the last 16 hours because they've been at work, is NOT going to be paying TOO much attention to their own spelling and grammar when all they are trying to do is type the words in quickly while they have the chance to join in the conversation before it moves on.

I'm starting THIS paragraph after a 15 min break because the phone rang twice. I'm also in a rush because I need to cook a meal and be back out at work later. So........I have no intention of going back over what I've written to check for mistakes. In a work situation, it's important. The odd error here and there on a forum post is not a heinous crime, in my opinion. I have, however, given up on a thread started by an OP that is so badly written that it becomes laborious to get through it.

Curly, you do not need to "justify" yourself - I think we all understand where you are coming from.

I do not know how English used to be taught in schools as a first language in the past, nor I am a teacher, so I cannot comment on Elladee's point re: changing the current way of teaching. I am fairly sure, however, that a good teacher would be able to make a difference. I fear that this is another way in which students who go to 'failing schools' will lose out vs some more "polished ones". Call me idealistic, but lowering the expected standards for everyone has never solved the problem - it just widens the gap between those who get or can afford a great education.
The situation is similar for maths - there was a thread not so long ago complaining about homework which required complex calculations and mental maths. There were people who replied "why bother, surely they can use a calculator". I can only weep.

Anyway, thanks for the lively discussion... I am off to bed...

I heartily agree with what you're saying about the lowering of expectations and standards, minervaitalica. At work I'm shocked at the lack of basic skills amongst some of even our most able pupils. eg. knowledge of alphabetical order. Some of them genuinely don't know what that is. I remember doing a term of what our teacher called "dictionary exercises" in 3rd year of Juniors as part of our literacy lessons. Some people would probably pooh-pooh it as old-fashioned now as it basically involved putting a list of words in alphabetical order. Basic at first with words beginning with all different letters, and then progressing finally to a list of words all starting with the same letter. We were allowed to use a dictionary to help us, but it certainly was a useful thing to get us to do. It's a basic skill, but I doubt it's taught in classrooms today.

It's taught in Y2 and Y3, Curlyhairedassassin, and reinforced through writing lessons throughout KS2.

Am interested to hear more, Feenie. My son's in Y3 and hasn't done it in Y2 or in Y3 as far as I'm aware. But I'm not in his classroom so for all I know, they could well have done it already. How exactly do they teach it?

chill - what's your point?

curly - there's plenty wrong with my spelling, but I'm checking it here (or trying to)! Besides which, the point is, it goes pear-shaped when I'm concentrating on actually getting something written. So I do see the potential benefits of the exercise described in the OP (if that's what it is).

I picked up SPAG errors on this thread only because they disprove the theory that you lot claiming SPAG is important are actually able to spell, punctuate, and use grammar correctly all the time. Sometimes you choose not to bother (or maybe you have some weaknesses). Why hold a year 6 child to a higher standard? That's the point!

I get that it is frustrating having your spelling or grammar picked at when you think 'but you rude woman, this is just a chat forum/I'm a busy mum of a toddler/ I know how to do it when I try'. But doesn't a child have excuses too? 'I know how to do it when I try ... but when I try, I forget what I was going to say ... I knew that word yesterday, but today I got interested in the story and forgot ... I tried to check it but I was thinking about the question you asked not just the spelling'. That's the sort of stuff I always wanted to say. And luckily for me, we did occasionally have these sorts of exercises, in which poor SPAG would be temporarily forgiven. And so I learned I can write, and I wasn't an illiterate failure. It does matter.

'Call me idealistic, but lowering the expected standards for everyone has never solved the problem - it just widens the gap between those who get or can afford a great education.'

Yes, I see that point and it worries me too.

I am not suggesting we suddenly stop teaching these skills. I just feel so angry at the idea that what is described in the OP must be 'lowering standards'. If all that happens when a class is given this sort of exercise is that their SPAG suffers and isn't picked up, yes, that is lowering a standard. But what if their ability to write improves in other ways? Might it not result in a higher standard? Must someone who can't spell very well always be held back by it?

EllaDee - You may have heard about The Economist - it is not Daily Mail. Putting credibility aside, that article was giving facts on and actual examples from some of the most difficult languages. If you take the time to read through that fascinating article, it will put your ideas re difficulty of the English language into perspective.

"Go read these books" has never been a valid debate tactic, especially in the internet age when you should be able to find at least a reference to any research that you claim exists. You can't, because your funny claim that English is one of the harder languages out there is widely off the consensus, does not survive comparisons to even some of the other Latin languages on terms of gender, tense, and conjugation, and is generally indefensible.

Perhaps I have misunderstood you (and can't search now as on mobile device). It seemed to me that you were saying English education should not focus on spelling and grammar because it is oh so difficult.

Have you considered the possibility that other children don't necessarily struggle with spelling like you did? That you finding it difficult is not reason enough to turn a blind eye to spelling mistakes in every classroom in the UK?

I can understand the creative writing bit and getting them to put their thoughts down on paper, providing what they see all around them and what they hear, especially inside the school, is correct. For example, all posters made by teachers must display properly constructed sentences without any spelling mistakes, no teacher should leave teacher training college thinking they can say "skawl", "aks" or "I done it" and no letters should leave the school with spelling mistakes or grammatical errors. The all time classic for me is "Johnnie read allowed very well"!!

The basics need to be reinforced early - when we moved ds at the end of Y4 from his high performing outstanding primary to the local prep, the only thing he had a lot of catching up to do in was English and it was because the basics of grammar hadn't been instilled. That shouldn't be the case in my opinion.

We have created a generation of highly qualified individuals, often with more than one masters degree, who lack the basic foundation skills to cope with a middle management office based role. I interview them day in and day out and the tragedy is that they are oblivious to their shortcomings and therefore cannot reflect and correct them and nobody within the education system has ever intervened.

Cote, if you check wikipedia it will also tell you English has a deep orthography. Is that simple enough for you? 'Go and read books' is a perfectly valid thing to say when someone has asked for links to research.

And - for the zillionth time, since you seem incapable of reading and understanding my very simple English: I am talking about orthography, which has nothing to do with gender or tense!

I am - as I have said - part of c.10% of people who have similar difficulties with English. Then there are many more who have different difficulties. Funnily enough, one person who can't understand English very well and has never come across the concept of a deep orthography isn't really going to change this.

I have never said English doesn't have deep ortography. Just by reading my posts on this thread, you should be able to tell that I am quite familiar with English ortography.

My problem is with your view that the rules of the English language are so difficult that children should not be expected to know them, that spelling and grammar should not be given much weight even in English classes. English is not the even the most difficult Latin language, and in comparison to the rest of the world's myriad languages, it is indeed one of the simplest ones. Yet, students all around the world are in general perfectly capable of learning to make grammatically correct sentences in their own languages and properly spelling them.

As for you calling me a "person who can't understand English very well ", well that is just a bit pathetic, isn't it?

It's 'orthography', and English is not a 'Latin language'.

For goodness' sake, if you don't know what you are talking about, do shut up.

Excuse me?

Look, I made a pretty simple point about English having a deep orthography. You argued against it for several pages, rejected the research offered to you, and then denied you'd ever meant to talk about orthography. I don't know what you're getting out of this, but if you are trying to argue a case, it would make sense to learn the basic terminology and facts. Otherwise, it comes across as if you're just wasting time. I'm not interested in that.

I didn't argue anything of the sort, actually.

I said English isn't that difficult, especially when compared to other languages. As you can see, I can write quite well in English (bar the occasional spelling mistake - bravo for pointing that out, btw ) so I am obviously familiar with English orthography.

What I said was this:
"My problem is with your view that the rules of the English language are so difficult that children should not be expected to know them, that spelling and grammar should not be given much weight even in English classes."

Seriously, if conversations on MN are winding you up so badly that you are crying "shut up" rather than answering the posts, I think you should go to bed and come back to this thread tomorrow morning.