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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think spelling and grammar can't be ignored

169 replies

busyhouseof8 · 17/10/2011 18:25

DS2 is in Yr6. He came home from school with homework for a 30 minute piece of writing to describe a friend.

I gave the usual talk about being careful with your spelling and punctuation only for him to say, "it's OK, Mrs P says she doesn't mind about any of that so long as she can work out what we're trying to say".

AIBU to think that actually learning spelling and punctuation is reasonably important? DH is currently sifting through graduates to employ, many of whom have excellent degrees but can't seem to spell for toffee or string a literate sentence together. His firm runs remedial English classes just so they can write a letter to a client that makes sense and will be paid for!

Parents' evening this week - should I question her methods?

Apologies for all spelling and grammar errors in this post..............

OP posts:
EllaDee · 19/10/2011 10:41

Not necessarily, no. You can use one if you'd like. Smile

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 10:44

Sorrry, cross-posted, that last was about question marks, obviously.

scholes, have you ever honestly been unable to decipher the meaning of a sentence using the wrong option of the 'there/their' pair (try saying that ten times fast)?

I'm only asking because I genuinely don't find any of these mistakes confusing. They are irritating, but so is an essay written in babyish handwriting with circles over the i's, and so are people who will insist on expressing their dislike of my favourite authors. Unfortunately, these are just my personal prejudices. I wish spelling and grammar could be seen in more the same way, though I know they aren't at the moment.

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 10:45

I've no idea which is which of stationery and stationary, btw!

Iggly · 19/10/2011 10:49

I'm Confused about your lecture on the use of correct s&p to your son OP - rather than explore the creative ways of writing. Then he can check the spelling etc once he's finished it I.e. Proof read. Then I'm sure his s&p will naturally improve.

Otherwise he's basically being told, you can write any old crap as long as you've spelt it correctly. English is a lot more than that quite frankly.

Iggly · 19/10/2011 10:51

Ella stationery is paper/pens etc which have "e" in them. That's how I remember it!

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 10:59

Thanks Iggly. I admit I tend to look it up when I need to use either as I forget as soon as I've checked! Grin

I just don't see why it is a problem unless it is the entrenched snobbery. I do see why, of course, living in a society where a value is placed on these things, we all naturally want to do them correctly. But it is a bit of an empty exercise and it's good for children to realize that no, the world will not fall if they don't master these skills perfectly. They can even go on to English degrees ...

ByTheWay1 · 19/10/2011 11:00

I always use stationery is sold at a stationers.

Another good one is practISe (is = verb) and practICE (ice = noun)

Scholes34 · 19/10/2011 11:05

It's not snobbery to want things to be correct. My other bug bear is 'could of' instead of 'could have'.

E for envelope in stationery, by the way.

Scholes34 · 19/10/2011 11:06

. . . there was a time when I worked for an organisation where the Chairman went ballistic if a split infinitive was used. Fortunately, they're allowed now!

CogitoErgoSometimes · 19/10/2011 11:10

YANBU but I would check your DS's story at parents' evening. My DS's Y6 teacher would put little red rings around all missed capitals, full stops etc.... and I don't suppose he was alone.

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 11:10

It is snobbery to insist on correctness for correctness' sake, however.

(Btw, you mean 'were' not 'was' - that does annoy me because it is very hard to teach languages to someone who's not familiar with that one).

I expect the teacher the OP is talking about would love reading perfect essays every time - but it won't happen. Maybe this exercise will help some children write more confidently, or more fluently, or just simply more. Those things are important too.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 19/10/2011 11:21

"I just don't see why it is a problem unless it is the entrenched snobbery"

You should read the excellent 'Eats, Shoots and Leaves' by Lynn Truss. It isn't snobbery motivating correct use of punctuation and grammar, more an effort at improving communication.

e.g The person responsible for supplies to a building site gets a note saying "Get prices for copper doors and floorboards". The note was meant to say "Get prices for copper, doors and floorboards'. They're going to waste a lot of time pricing up copper floorboards.

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 11:28

I've read it, but I don't think it makes sense in this context, where the teacher is not going to act on any suggestions/instructions in these essays.

I agree that being able to communicate effectively is very important. But if you are so nervous about spelling, or so confused about where the comma goes, that you never write more than a couple of lines, I can see why it might work well to ignore those things for a bit and just get it all down on paper somehow.

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 11:31

There are some elements of spelling and grammar - mentioned in this thread - which are purely about correctness for correctness' sake. We cope fine with homophones and with words spelled the same which mean different things, and it is much more important to learn how to look up tricky words when you need to, than to rote-learn the rules for every single one of them.

ZZZenAgain · 19/10/2011 11:33

I've been wondering if this is handled in a similar fashion in other European countries. IME German and Russian schools place a lot of emphasis on correct spelling and on teaching grammar. I don't know from experience but I believe French and Italian schools are similar in this respect. It isn't perhaps my favourite appraoch to schooling but it seems to me to be effective.

If they can do it, why can't we?

lashingsofbingeinghere · 19/10/2011 11:34

YANBU
IMO telling children that sometimes spelling, grammar and punctuation don't matter, and sometimes do, is a recipe for confusion. It also really gives the impression that good English is something that is only important when it is being examined or tested, rather than something that, above all shows respect for the reader.

Scholes34 · 19/10/2011 11:36

The "Fork Handles" sketch shows we don't always cope with homophones.

limitedperiodonly · 19/10/2011 11:40

Would the people who've made errors while stressing the importance of good written English like to explain why the rules don't apply to them?

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 11:40

Zzen - English is a particularly difficult language to learn to spell.

scholes - fair point ... but if there's a perfect way to eliminate all confusion, do you want to start by finding another word for 'leaves' (in the title above)? Or shall we accept that the language does have some tricks and so does the orthography, and perhaps it's not always the children who find it hardest to cope with them who should get punished when there is more to English?

That's really where I'm coming from - it is very demoralizing to be finding all your work is a pile of red ink when you really wanted to write something expressive.

ZZZenAgain · 19/10/2011 11:46

I am not convinced that French, German or Russian are easy to learn to spell correctly either. Each of those languages has difficulties, even for the native speaker. I have no idea what the facts are but my assumption is that most children who complete schooling in France, German and Russian spell their mother tongue confidently and know and use the grammar. Each of those languages is more complicated in terms of declinations and conjugations than English.

ZZZenAgain · 19/10/2011 11:49

I may be entirely wrong about achievement of pupils and knowledge of teachers in these countries and it is possible that there are teachers in those countries who don't know how to spell "excellent", don't know the difference between "their" and "they're", don't know that "to be" is a verb even though it is not a "doing word", and so on. (I am giving examples MNers have commented on in the pastand which have stuck in my mind). If so, I am happy to be enlightened.

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 11:50

I may be wrong, but as I understand it, French at least is considered to have a shallower orthography than English. DH thinks Russian does too. English really is unusually complicated.

You may well be right about grammar though! I think we English are not good at that and it is tricky when we come to learn languages.

Scholes34 · 19/10/2011 11:51

German is by far the easiest language with regard to spelling - even the long words, which are just lots of smaller ones lumped together.

I'm not advocating correcting every error a child makes if this means that their creative flow is slowed, but by Year 6, they should have mastered the fundamentals such as there/their etc.

EllaDee · 19/10/2011 11:54

Cross-post.

I'd say there are big qualitative differences between some of the examples you mention.

A person who doesn't understand that 'to be' is a verb is liable to struggle with languages. It may be they can use verbs perfectly correctly, but they will have learned to do so by rote, so they will be unable to match up what they do with the formal rules. This is a problem if they want to learn another language or if they want to teach.

A person who confuses 'their and they're' either gets confused easily or doesn't understand what an apostrophe is doing. Usually, a person who doesn't understand apostrophes writes unclear English. OTOH, a person who confuses 'there' and 'their' may well be a rubbish speller, but you'll seldom actually find them unclear. Same with 'excellent'.

beanandspud · 19/10/2011 11:55

I do think it's important and the rules were drummed into us at primary school. I also cringe at work when I see application forms and written reports with poor spelling and grammar.

My dad always tells the story of going to my first parents' evening and noticing some of my work on the wall with poor spelling. When he queried it he was told that it didn't matter and that creativity was more important.

My dad's response was "Well, that won't help her to do a bl**dy crossword!". I was five Blush.