In thinking the govts new obesity strategy is

[laptopdancer]

well, a bit pants?

zippy - only you wouldn't - because you wouldn't think it fair to have made me stagger a mile to the shops when I first did my back in and could drive but not walk in steps of less than six inches at a time. Or, come to that, any proper (which mine wasn't as it was temporary) disability, or if it was monsooning down and someone had a small baby.

The fact is, everyone has their own way of dealing with food, exercise, health. And the problem is, they learn it from their parents, so they learn what an "ordinary" meal is, and what to expect, and if that's too much they will eat just the same when they take charge of their own food.

One message I hope I misheard on the news yesterday was the idea that everyone should try to eat 100 fewer calories. If I was the parent of a child with an eating disorder I would have been furious with that. I do wonder what all this fat hatred does in terms of encouraging anorexia. When you look at films / TV from the 70s the girls with ideal legs would be considered a bit chunky these days. We've lost a handle on what is normal, and desirable. The thread the other day when a poster said she was worried her 14 year old sister was aiming for a size 6 and plenty of posters came on and said that was the right sort of weight, was totally depressing.

People should not be counting calories. Encouraging average weight people to count calories/eat 100 calories less a day is a nonsense.

There is quite a lot of research evidence that dieting doesn't work in the medium to long term and one of the reasons is how undereating impacts on the body. Undereating will lead to overeating. It wreaks havoc with your blood sugar. We all know people who have done extreme diets who will tell you that they feel so FULL after eating say, two lettuce leaves and a protein bar. They don't. They are physiologically starving and they train themselves to override that with "willpower" but eventually the battle is lost and the pendulum swings. When it does they are even more out of touch with what their body needs and how to stop eating. Even a moderate diet like WW involves eating at a caloric level that equates to food poverty. Any of us who have lost weight naturally after having a baby say will have done so with little thought, just by resuming a different type of eating because we trust and follow our bodies. Dieting interferes with the body's natural mechanisms for weight gain and loss.

I come from a family of obese people. I am technically 4lbs overweight myself now, but I am pregnant! I guarantee you from living with people who are obese that they are starving half the time. Half the time my mother and sister are on some crazy low-calorie diet, rebounding some weeks/months later into extremely high-calorie diets.. but I suspect that at this stage they probably spend more time in the year eating the caloric equivalent of the diet of the developing world than they do "stuffing their faces" or "ballooning" or doing any of the other things fat-hating people seem to think they do. My sister yo-yo's in weight massively - she has lost 32lbs in the last three months but I guarantee that will rebound as she is on one of those crazy diets that involves no carbs and meal replacements.

And she will hate herself for doing so.

Robot - a size 6 now is about the equivalent of a size 10 when I were a lass, some 30 years ago and it was quite healthy - but anything less than that would have been too skinny, I think. Size 6 when I was that young was almost unheard of - size 8 was usually the smallest you'd expect to find!

I agree that we have entirely lost the plot when it comes to what is "normal" - in both directions. Not only with the superskinny clotheshanger models, but the fact that a current size 12 is what used to be a size 16 - if your clothes size doesn't go up, you can con yourself that you're not putting on that much weight, despite what the scales say (I know this, it's happened to me) So I've been wearing size 12 clothes for years now, despite my ever-increasing weight and girth - it's ridiculous!

a collection of dietitians' views here tinyurl.com/6dn88vu

Weight stability over time is probably a more accurate indicator of how appropriate someone's weight may be than dress size. If you are within a typical weight range or close to it, have been the same weight since you were an early teenager and have no weight-related health issues, what dress size you are is largely irrelevant. You are not likely to be some massive drain on public resources because of your weight simply because you can't wear a vintage dress that fit an average build woman in the 30's or 60's.

I know some women who are a size 16 now who fit this profile etc and really, it is not a public health matter because in an earlier age they would have been subjectively considered "fat". There are many middle aged women who are also perhaps heavier than in their teens or twenties but who are nonetheless maintaining a weight that is within a few pounds of randomly generated weight goals who are not really of any concern either.

The concern is where people are becoming fatter, year in and year out to the extent that their bodies are under serious strain. Another concern is where children are growing up in households where no one cooks or can even name basic vegetables, but live instead on deep-fried foods and junk, and where these habits will become a generational problem.

maighdlin, your post was so sad and I'm glad you got one positive reply.

This flies against everything the sanctimonious didacts (including our beloved government) say - but the real answer is learning to love your body as it is! Sounds impossible, huh? It's not :) It takes time, that's all.

I've been treated for eating disorders and know that over-eating is the same disorder as anorexia, expressed in a different way. You're already clued up about nutrition and health, so you've overcome the practical hurdle. The rest is emotional-psychological and you can address this yourself - with kindness. Here are some ideas (fwiw, I've done all of them and still do):

? Have nice baths or showers - take your time, use a product that smells nice, wash yourself gently all over like you would a small child.
? Use body lotion afterwards - give yourself a lovely full-body massage, be kind to your skin.
? Make a notice that says "You look nice" and stick it over a large mirror. Look at yourself for a few minutes each day in this mirror. It's your 'nice looking' mirror
? Take a bit of time to try yourself at different angles and lighting in your nice-looking mirror. Each day, find one thing to like about your reflection.
? Don't bother slagging yourself off, you're good enough at that already!
? Try different smiles at your nice-looking reflection, try a few pouty poses. If they make you giggle, it's all good!
? Wear clothes that fit properly. Nothing worse than hitching things up and down all day. Check your nice-looking reflection to choose colours that suit you well :)
? Put lipstick on.

? Get a mindfulness meditation CD (or download a free one) and use it every day. Ideally, do it in the same room as your nice-looking mirror. They take about 10 minutes.

? Whenever you think or say something nasty about yourself, correct it immediately. Replace it with praise for one of your good features, or at least go "That was rude! I'm all right really!"

? Whenever something makes you feel really, truly happy, even for a second, dwell on it for a while and keep it in your store of happy memories. This will build up to grant you radiance - honest! See what others have said about being in love, it's the same principle.

This does take time. And it works. Trust your 'nice looking' mirror, your lovely bathtimes and happy mind to do the trick: they will :)
Go for it! What's to lose?

Can I just say, all this obsession with dress sizes is a bit bonkers? Sure, it's annoying when you're shopping, but dress sizes have got bugger all to do with health.

Everybody knows their shape and measurements, except for eating disordered people. If you've got 38" hips, you buy a skirt with a 38" hip. If you really care about what 'size' the label says it is, you need to check your own body image for distortions. Really.

Are you serious garlic? I am assuming you aimed that at me - how many clothes manufacturers do you know that put the inches on their labels, as opposed to a size? Or do you go out with a measuring tape, which is rather more disordered IMO than picking a clothes size that you think may fit and trying it on.

And actually my point was not so much about dress size as about the fact that if you don't see an increase in your dress size, then it can be detrimental to your overall health because some people think "Oh it's ok, I'm still a size 12, I'm not that bad" and carry on with the insidious weight increase. Whereas if their size was going up and up, they'd be more aware of the problem. IMO.

No, it was aimed at about half the posters on this thread!!

You know your size by looking, you don't need a tape measure. As I said, it's annoying when shopping but that's beside the point. Anyone with an accurate knowledge of their own body can tell which clothing will fit them. Anyone depending on a third party - the label, for example - to tell them what size they are - has a self-awareness problem. Fact.

I have to disagree with you on that, garlic. I mean obviously if I pick up something that is (let's just stick with the sizes for now for my purposes) a size 8, I can tell it's too small. But I can't easily tell just by looking (because I don't have that kind of brain) the difference between a size 12 and a size 14 and whether or not it's going to fit my waist, or bust. I have to take one of each and go and try them on. Perhaps you are lucky in that you do have that kind of instant-ruler brain - but I really don't.

if their size was going up and up, they'd be more aware of the problem

• yes, I agree. But clothes labelling is a tiny part of the overall picture. The bigger problem, by far imo, is self-hatred. But I've posted plenty about that, in feminism, s&b, chat and iabu ... and know I'm preaching to the inconvertible. Sadly.

Garlic - you and me are going to fall out in a minute - which will make me sad because normally I agree with most of what you write! I am not inconvertible for one, and am not generally suffering from self-hatred for another. and you are probably not intending for me to take that personally but it's a bit hard not to!

I most definitely wasn't, Thumb - please don't take it that way.

I feel very exercised about this topic because of my own history and everything I learned while in group therapy with bundles of self-haters. It really upsets me to see that self-dislike is practically compulsory these days, especially among women :(

Forgive me for quoting myself; this post was in Feminism - and please note, it is NOT aimed at any individual ...! The post was about a child who was anxious about her weight:

If you think she's already dysmorphic (has an inaccurate idea of her own size), try the test my psychologist did when I got anorexia: Cats use their whiskers to assess which spaces they can get through, but people are self-aware and can do this just by looking. Discuss this a bit with her, then play a game with two chairs, placed back-to-back. Get her to estimate her hip width and place the chairs to fit. Then ask her to walk between them. If she can do this without twisting and without extra space, or if she bumps the chairs, she's still okay on that front. If there is a space, use this to show her she's overestimating her own size and explain what it means - a good opportunity to introduce critical thinking about media images.

OK. Have settled down a bit. Sorry - just got a bit aerated there myself! [hblush] Still friends?

I do see your point, I really do. And to be fair I do suffer from body dysmorphia - but only because I still think I am nearly the size I used to be! I look in my mirror and think "not that bad", still wear nominally the same size clothes, think "not that bad" - and then I see a photo of myself and think "Jeez! How did I get to be that big??" So I have the opposite problem - I think I'm thinner than I really am. This isn't healthy either, because it doesn't encourage me to do anything about it. Logically I know I should, but my eyes betray me and clothing manufacturers are pandering to that betrayal, IMO.

Now I know what my problems are as well - all too well, seeing what my main field of interest is - and still I can't get myself motivated to do anything about it. So getting back on topic - what would help me to do something to reduce my weight - primarily it would be easy access enjoyable exercise, something I could do with DS, that wouldn't exacerbate my back/pelvis problems. And probably the internet breaking down forever so I didn't spend so much time on MN

:) :)

I'm so with you on the adverse effects of Mumsnet! I have a total blind spot where the 'Off' button should be ...

Probably a stupid question, Thumb - does your pelvis/back allow Pilates? Or Alexander technique, though that's hideously expensive.

Or invent a sport with DS, which involves you doing sitting-down exercises while he runs about a lot

Did Alexander while I was in the UK - it was hideously expensive but it did help for a bit and I do still use some of the movement techniques to limit the problems. Was banned from Pilates and yoga by my osteopath, although I could try it again if I find a proper teacher who knows about back problems and so on. I am the person who bought a book called Yoga for Wimps and my back went out in 3 places on exercise no. 3 . Belly dancing was quite good - strengthened the core well (too well, apparently now) but DS can't come with for that. I can't swim with him yet; it's too hilly to cycle comfortably; he's too little to walk fast - argh! Will find something before I become a total couch potato - we're trying to set up a mothers' walking club, so that should help. Stopped drinking alcohol apart from occasionally - just need to give up the chocolate now (NOOooooooooo!!!)

Anyway - sorry for hijacking thread!

Gawd. Chronic pain without booze or chocolate sounds bad! Interesting about the belly dancing - it sounds like fun, maybe I should get a video (no classes in Nowheresville.) I bought a hoop, thinking "I've always been good at this" ... er, too many years ago; I'm still struggling to keep the bugger up for more than a split second

Make every school have a vegetable garden Where, please? Not every school has space especially in town.

a large tax on the 'TOTALLY SHIT' products (to be paid by the manufacturers but not the consumers). Sure, the manufacturers are not going to pass it on; but I think zippy539 is pulling our legs here.

Oh, and I'd ban cars for any journey of less than a mile. And here.

And bring back playing fields. The people who live in the flats which were built on the playing field which we used to use at one of my schools (when I didn't skive off games!) will love this idea!

Come off it. It is for individuals to improve their life-styles and nobody else.

Andrew, if they have an outdoor playing space then they have space for vegetable growing, even if it's just in tubs. All schools have outdoor playing space, surely?

Was banned from Pilates and yoga by my osteopath
Because the Yoga might have made you better and stopped you paying them.
What did your REAL doctor say about it?
Sorry but Chiropractors and Osteopaths sell a lot of quackery and have a vested interest in keeping you from fully recovering

You can't do much in a few tubs, for Pete's sake. And if you do more than that you are cutting back on outdoor playing space . . . which rather defeats the object of the exercise.

TalkinPeace2 You are so, so right!

Yada yada, Talkinpeace - docs were shite with my back and neck problems thank you, said I'd just have to live with various issues, like the transient positional vertigo for example - but no! Osteopath fixed it within 3 sessions. So piss off with your quackery accusations.

Andrew - you could have tubs around the edge of the playing space - long troughs, could grow beans in them, peas, carrots - probably not marrows, pumpkins or potatoes but it would be easily managed.

Still less space and more things to knock into!