To wonder why so many otherwise intelligent people are so against modern medicine?

[toptramp]

I do have time for some complimentary medicine but i knoe some people who would rather do homeothapy than vaccines etc. Am i right in thinking that modern medicine is fab generally?

Modern medicine can be amazing, true. It can also cause horrendous, intolerable side effects..................it's not clear cut.

How does "what drove" become "whist drive" O Apple Spelling God?

Don't be embarrassed - you got wiser! FWIW my father is shortly getting married to a reiki master who has also taught him to talk to aliens. Guess how embarrassed I am. Could be hereditary, ...

TBH, the one that sets all my alarm bells ringing every time is quantum physics. Any mention of it is the quickest way for any woo merchant to convince me that they are clueless. I do take great pleasure in asking them to explain quantum theory to me, though.

Herbal medicine can, of course, work. It's full of active ingredients after all. The question is rather whether it might be unsafe to self medicate with it because it is actually very capable of producing real effects.

They try and explain homeopathy with quantum physics? .

For me the main problems with herbal medicine are:

a) the inconsistency of the content of the active ingredient due to the nature of it weather and soil condition changes are enough to change the compostition.

b) People believing the 'its natural so its safe' mantra so not looking out for potential adverse effects (herbal medicine can have adverse effects too).

c) People don't tell their Dr they are taking it an then something is prescribed which may interact and is not monitored because nobody else knows.

d) The lack of regulation meaning that some products are very iffy ie contain strong chemicals with sometime no relation to what is supposed to be there. Alternatively a batch of a herb designed for the treatment of impotence was found to contain counterfeit viagra.

I was just going to say that the quantum woo normally refers to "energy" medicine rather than homeopathy, ...

Then I decided on a quick Google (PDF warning!) on the subject. Apparently some people really do think that you can argue for homeopathy with quantum physics.

Now off to cry in a corner about this!

Im not being funny but yeah i agree op.

I have a really good friend who is a professional and has 2 small kids.

She has all these herbal things lined up in her kitchen to combat her anaemia reduced thyroid function, depression and all the symptoms that go along with these conditions.....she sees a herbalist every 2 weeks......
I want to shake her and scream at her FFS get to the Dr, get some PROPER medication and get yourself well so that you can enjoy your health, life & kids like you should be within the month
Oh and why the FUCK is this herbalist continuing to get you to buy this shit, they should be ashamed of themself and should be sending you to the Dr

BUT i smile sweetly and sip the ylang ylang tea shite that she offers tipping it down the sink when she goes off to try to go to the loo for 20 minutes each visit!

Gosh. What a totally loaded OP statement.

I pretty much embrace modern medicine. I'm very grateful for much of it but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be questioned. All the time.

I do think it's important not to just accept whatever the government or doctors tell you regardless of your own curiosity and enquiry. I think you'd have to be a bit of a chump to do that.

As a nurse I think part of the problem is most people dont realise how severe many illnesses are that we are immunised against and have treatment for and see possible side effects as terrible and dont understand how much worse the disease is

Well I am a nurse....and I totally get why people are concerned about side effects. The bottom line is that people need to be informed. I don't buy the drug rep patter, I won't even use their pens or eat their sandwiches. But I do try to elicit what is good and what is bad about the drug - and to do that as objectively as possible.

hands NotADudeExactly a tissue.

Pats back.

I know love, just when you think it couldn't get more bonkers...it does.

I lost my mascara the day I discovered some homoepaths were convinced they could deliever their "treatments" via MPEG.

Modern medicine isn't perfect but it's an awful lot better than woo when it comes to treating serious illnesses or injuries. It's modern medicine that eradicated smallpox, enabled diabetics to carry on living (rather than just dying in a rather unpleasant fashion), vastly reduced the number of deaths that used to occur from TB and septacemia...
And yes, some of the science-based treatments for serious illnesses have nasty side effects. But in most cases the side effects of the treatment (nausea, rashes, anxiety, loss of bone density, whatever) are less awful than the results of no treatment (death).

Much appreciated, fastweb. Have a !

Do you mean MPEG as in "Moving Picture Experts Group"? The video compression standard?

The stupid! It hurts!

(That having been said: unlike water, computers demonstrably have and make use of memory!)

Because people are twats. Case closed.

If you are ill it is gods will because you are a sinner (I have read this on several authorative american internet sites).

Do you mean MPEG as in "Moving Picture Experts Group"? The video compression standard?

Video ! Go no, that would be really CRAZY!

I screwed up the format, I meant to say MP3, cos that makes sense.

Magic Music water....but without the water, cos the bytes ...remember it ?

It was mooted as a way to heal Africa, without the need to actually physically ship pills over, if memory serves.

Poor Africa

Are we talking about magic water purveyors?

They do talk shit.

I hate the bastards.

I'd be dead without the others - I love the men & women with their proper drugs & knowledge.

Thank you.

Oh I say, the mp3 meets magic water has come on a bit since it last came to my attention.

Now there are machines, so any practisioner can plonk a bottle of suger pills in the cup holder of the briefcased sized medicine maker.

Then at the touch of a button, using the right "white noise" for any specific remedy, they expose sugar pills to said "white niose" and the sugar pills automatically turn into medicine, at the right potency, with no annoying banging and diluting, and no lost profits if you've run out of the remedy you client needs.

Just keep stocked up on blank sugar pills, and bobs your uncle.

In fact so amazing is this technology that it isn't really necceassry for the quack homeopath to diagnose you, or for you to be there, "energy" is sort of like white niose, and niether are encumbered with the barriers of the physical, so the machine knows what the patient needs even if they are npt there, and the man with the machine (who needs training when the machine kows all?) can just zap some blank sugar pills and send them where they are needed.

Electronic Homopathy, then point where shark jumping reached olympic gold heights.

Just because some people use complementary/alternative medicine does not mean they are 'against' modern medicine. Many people will use them together (hence complementary). Also, what do you define as 'alternative medicine' anyway? You only mention homeopathy but there is quite a lot out there. Is it only homeopathy you disagree with? I think you've made quite a few generalisations in your OP to be honest and I'm not sure how anyone can agree with you without you being a bit more specific.

While modern medicine can be amazing and save lives, it also has it's problems and it isn't risk-free either. I don't think it does any harm to question things and not just take everything a doctor tells you as gospel. They are human too and can make mistakes. Just look at the health boards on MN to see missed diagnoses, people being dismissed by their GP with a 'virus' only to end up in hospital. Even doctors can disagree on the best treatment for certain illnesses. Some adopt a wait and see approach while others will give out antibs 'just in case'. It really can vary between doctors and even between countries. You mentioned vaccines - in the US they routinely vaccinate against CP. People living over there would you think you were mad/neglectful/stupid for not vaccinating yet the vast majority of people in the UK (including doctors) think that it is unnecessary because it's 'only chickenpox'. A doctor in the US who tried to tell you that the CP vaccine was unnecessary would probably be labelled a 'quack'.

There really is no black and White.

Generally I agree with much of what people are saying here but I'll rise to your fling at natural childbirth, OP.

I spent two hours yesterday with DH in our (non-NCT) prenatal class going over the pros and cons of entonox, pethidine, meptid, epidurals, and spinal blocks for c-sections. And there are some seriously significant cons for all of them save entonox. In each case there has to be a balance of risk - in general if you don't have any other indications or symptoms it seems crazy to introduce the possibility of some really serious side effects instead of trying for a natural birth. But of course if the choice is between saving your and/or the baby's life and having a c-section, then the balance of risk is overwhelmingly in favour of having a c-section.

Even the most lentil weaving hippies I know agree with that, even if they are lotus birthing and taking as their initial standpoint that they would prefer to refuse all medical interventions.

I really think that the key is to inform yourself as to risks, counterindications and possible side-effects of any medication or intervention beforehand so you are able to make an informed decision, and not take a dogmatic stance for or against "natural childbirth". If you're not a statistics-minded person then sitting down with someone like iwantaramp and talking through the pros and cons is essential.

I think there are different reasons with different people.

1. Some people have never had any real serious illnesses, but have minor stuff or vague symptoms that don't really have any medical treatment. For example, people being tired, low energy, frequent headaches, bloating, etc. With these kind of things, assuming there is no underlying cause, the placebo affect of complementary therapies probably does work. And their GP will not really be able to help.

1. Some people have physical symptoms that are really symptoms of depression or anxiety. Again if they don't want to hear the message that these symptoms are about mental health (in fairness, I am sure not all Drs will say this very sensitively), then GP can't help but the placebo affect of complementary therapies will help. A friend who is an acupuncturist has said a high proportion of patients end up crying during the session and telling her their problems for example.

1. Some people have physical symptoms that modern medicine can't really help with and they turn to complementary therapies in search of something that does help. I can identify with this. I get neuralgia - a burning pain on parts of my body. Before I was sent to the pain clinic and got suitable painkillers, my GP kept telling me to take painkillers that had little affect. In desperation I tried acupuncture as I was in despair at the idea of having to put up with that level of pain every day for years.

There are all kinds of things where people are basically told that they have to live with the symptoms.

1. People who want to live healthily and so avoid food with pesticides, air fresheners, etc and extend this to medicine with the idea that natural is good, "chemical" is bad. Totally ignoring the fact that everything is chemical.

1. People want to avoid the side effects of medicine. And anything that is powerful enough to work will have side effects for some people. For example, friend who had psoarsis and refused to use any steriod based creams. So they turn to complementary medicine as they see it as safer.

My (totally unscientific, anecdotal) theory of why some people go for this and not others is that it is like the generational swings in men's underpants fashion - from briefs to boxers and back again - I.e. Whatever your parents went for you go for the opposite

My 60s parents dosed me up on homeopathy and conspiracy theories, but I've turned out a complete rationalist. Friends whose parents were conventional 'trust the men in White coats' types have gone the other way and dabbled in all kinds of woo.

Hi all. Some very interesting responses. With regards to natural birth Tyelperion, I do believe that natural birth is of course ideal and the best if you can do it.
I was in labour for two days with no drugs but just couldn't dilate past 7cm. Baby and I were distressed. I just hate the attitude among some that drugs in childbirth = bad and will affect your baby (mabe they do but not badly in most cases) the attitude that you are failure because you needed drugs in labour and somehow less of a woman is appauling and prevailent among some alternative types.
My doula tried to tell me that mums who use opiate derived drugs during childbirth were statistically more likely to have a heroin addict child later on in life. Absolute bollocks imo and just another way of making mums feel shit about their parenting choices. Next time I will use drugs if need be and therefore might end up with a vbac at least.

This is the most intelligent thread I've seen on MN for many a moon

Some people are just stupid.