To feel completely and utterly alienated by the church of england

[reallytired]

We want to get dd baptised. We have attended two meetings and the church wants us to have a service of thanks giving and then have visitors from the church before booking a date for the baptism service.

There was a very cheesy session on forgiveness. One of the parents said they struggled to forgive a particular man. (She gave no details) The priest said to her that you cannot have that attitude if you are going to get your baby baptised. I felt so sorry for the lady as I felt she had been judged on next to no evidence. None of us are perfect.

I struggle to forgive the man who held a piece of sharp glass to my throat at the age of 19 in an attempt to pressurise me into sex. Does that mean that I should not get my dd baptised?

'Christianity is not about being judgemental, as this priest seems.'
No but it is about honesty and standing up for what you believe in. I think the decline of the church in the UK is all about people picking and choosing what they like and blaming the church for the bits they don't like, the church gives in and tries to find a nice comfortable way out - Most of the pews are empty in most C of E's nowdays, so surely that is saying something about the lack of faith in our country. Pussyfooting around and making it all cosy doesn't make any difference!!

But at the heart of Christianity is forgiving others because you yourself have been forgiven. If you don't even aspire to that, how can you possibly be committing yourself to follow Christ - or in this case, do this on behalf of your child.

The problem with the OP's situation seems to be the delivery of the message - it's a hard thing to say, even harder to accept. So just saying, 'oh you can't go through with this' with nothing more is poor ministry. But it's like someone wanting to go through the wedding ceremony for the pretty dress and the romance and all the lovely sentiment on the day, without actually seriously committing to 'for better for worse, for richer for poorer, till death us do part'... A priest who allowed that to happen wouldn't be doing any favours for the married couple, and would also be lacking any integrity in his own vocation.

Maybe try going to church on Sundays (it doesn't sound like you already do), becoming part of the congregation and understanding what you are signing your family up for. Baptism isn't an excuse for a party, it is a serious commitment to bring your child up as a Christian. if you want a Vermont now then a ceremony of thanksgiving sounds like a good option.

You shouldn't expect to go along for a service, have your child baptised, and not go back. That makes a mockery of the faith of the people who are part of that community all the time. If you can't mean the words Ohmydays writes above then you shouldn't do it, you have to stand in public and say them, in front of a load of people who believe them.

If you do believe them, that's great, start attending the church regularly, get to know the congregation that your child will be a part of. Then start planning their baptism.

If the vicar's attitude to forgiveness confuses then try the Alpha course, which is just getting started across lots of churches around the country.

I think you should try another church.

"One of the parents said they struggled to forgive a particular man. (She gave no details) The priest said to her that you cannot have that attitude if you are going to get your baby baptised. "

I find this pretty shocking TBH.

I do not believe being a true Christian magically makes you more forgiving.

OP, I hope you find a nicer church and maybe say to this vicar you found his advice upsetting. I suppose it is possible he knows the other lady outside of church and knows what teh situation is, but I really hope he has no idea of what happened to you or what he said was very crass!

I am C of E and there are problems in it as in any large organization. But if you go because it is your faith or you feel strongly you want it for the baby, don't let one person's failure (the vicar's) put you off.

IMO, forgiveness is something you strive for, maybe pray for, but it doesn't come because you clicked your fingers. That's called 'lying and being sanctimonious about it'.

If forgiving people were so easy, we would not pray for it in the Lord's Prayer. It is really hard, and it's god-like to be able to forgive. That's why the prayer says 'forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us'. It's saying we must try to forgive in the same way God does and we know we are not God. We can't do it easily.

Happy Camel - the OP has said, later in the thread, that her family goes to church almost every Sunday. I think the "two meetings" were specific preparation for the baptism.

I think if you are a Christian that Jesus will give you the strength to forgive when the time is right, and also that it goes hand in hand with an emotional healing. But having gone through something difficult in the past should not exclude you from being part of the church. The Christian walk is very much a journey.

Perhaps the vicar has never had to forgive anything big, or is just a bit insensitive?

I may be wrong but I think in most other mainstream religions the 'forgiving and judgement' part is not considered to be our area of expertise and is left up to God? Muslims? anyone?

My family have a 90% attendence rate at church. It hasn't mesorized me into a perfect being (yet!). We know the priest and congretation very well. My dd is two and half years old and knows everyone. I have done an alpha course and confirmation already. The two meetings were for baptism.

I am not getting my dd baptised to get her into a C of E school. (The bog standard primary has better results and is nearer my house.) I feel that baptism is marking her journey in the church.

YANBU. Your experience and that of many of us who have found churches to be populated by rather judgemental, unpleasant people is a big part of why secularism and atheism are in the ascendance. I used to regard myself as a christian in the CofE socio-cultural sense (rather than any actual belief) until I was told in no uncertain terms by some very committed christians that my casual interpretation was not good enough. :) Their loss...

I don't think there are many clergy in the CofE who would say you have to get all your forgiveness totally done before you can have a baby baptised - forgiveness is a process, not a tick-box where you can claim you've 100% done it as of a certain date.

All I can think is that maybe the priest in this case either -

1. knows this woman and what she was talking to, and has discussed it in depth and she isn't even trying to forgive.

or 2. doesn't know her at all, as they've only come along to get the baby baptised, and he wants to challenge her to think about what Christianity is actually about, rather than just turning up for the do and never thinking about it again.

There are tactless C of E Vicars just like every other walk of life. Does he have a curate? Could you go over his head and talk to someone in the diocese about how his comments made you feel?

Forgiveness as Mum in scotland said is an on going process. Sometimes I have forgiven people who've done hurtful things to me, the next day it might all boil up again. It is also not saying "its alright then" but about not allowing the hurt another has done to you poison you. I know lots of Christians who struggle with forgiveness, I don't know anyone who would say its a reason not to baptise their children.

I am not in the slightest bit religious now but was baptized and confirmed in the CofE. As a parent or godparent of a baby being brough to baptism you have to make so pretty explicit promises about the nature of your belief. It seems to me that the priest was simply trying to ensure the parents understood the nature of what they were doing and the promises they were going to have to make. Just saying that you should try to forgive is not the same as saying you can't have your baby baptised if you can't.

Some posters seem very territorial about faith. It is my belief that God/Christ wants us all to be members of the same family. And may I quote the parable of the lost sheep....the joy in heaven when that lost little lambkin was found?! It is difficult in this day and age where we have so much choice in lots of other areas to meet people who are so directive and feel empowered to pick and choose openly as to who should pass through the church doors.

i am catholic and struggling with its recent reversion to friday penance and a change in the liturgy. The change in the liturgy of sunday mass is interesting. does it mean that every single mass said since 1973 was "wrong" and God got none of the messages? Has God been wondering where we have been but its like we have been dialing the wrong number....

It is all shite and folk like moving the goalposts in an attempt to bolster their own veneer of piety

I too doubt very much the vicar just said this without any background or maybe not knowing who the OP was. (ministers also have to be careful when granting everything to everyone as is taught in the book of Timothy.) The minister maybe doesnt know anything about the OP, her mission could be to tear the church to shreds (I'm sure its not but you get my gist) so vigilence has to be excercised too when it comes to making decisions like this. I think the vcar was right to say how he felt and I think more vicars in the C of E should do this and staand up truthfully for what they believe in.

Is Christ not the light, the way and the truth? Are vicars now in charge of who is called and who is not?

Is the church for only those who "fit"?

No, but I would suggest that church is for those who have Christian beliefs. Forgiveness is one of those isn't it?

Depends which church you go to. Gods church is for anyone. leaders have the authority to direct and teach the church going forward. Imagine a classroom without a teacher - all hell would let loose. We have to respect that authority. God is a God of love but he is also a God of order and discipline. Heck with my background I wouldn't want it any other way.

...and I find it really interesting how those such as Omiran who isn't religious now seem to understand the simple concept more than some of the people on here who go to church if they can pick and chose the bits they like.
I have only just started going back to a church myself after years of not doing so and would much rather someone be up and honest with me about what it is all about than make it all sounds cosy and fluffy - because it aint!

Yes, but who defines forgiveness? Is there a test for whether you are forgiving enough and who is brave enough to administer that? Faith is a communal activity, we all help each other. If the woman was struggling to forgive, it is the vicars responsibility to help her with that. Not simply throw up his hands and say that she didn't make the grade. He is neglecting his role as a minister. It is like a doctor walking past an accident and say "not today thanks". And I presume she was there as a christian? A christian life is rich and full, it encompasses all. He should have been more forgiving himself a bit more humble

Maybe that is why I no longer attend church - I can talk the talk but can't walk the walk. But I spent many years as an adolescent trying to.

Well I read it as 'you really should try to forgive as a Christian rather than 'Leave this house of God you wicked sinner and take your misbegoten heathen child with you!'

Surely the vicar should be forgiving you your failings in that case?

Religion does make me chortle.