to intensely dislike one of dd's friends...

[SexualHarrassmentPandaPop]

..even though they are 4.

She behaves what I would call brattishly. She openly tries to get dd into trouble by telling her to do things I've just asked her not to. DD doesn't listen to her but it pisses me off that she does this repeatedly and her parents stand by. She plays very roughly with dd and is sometimes downright nasty to my toddler ds (pulls his toys off him off him to make him cry, stamped on his fingers in the park the other week, pushes him over for no reason). Her parents either don't tell her off or they do and she ignores them and that's that. If I tell her off (which I did when she deliberately stamped on ds's fingers) I get cats bum face off the mum. I know it should be the parents I'm pissed off with (I also am) but I actually can't stand the child to the extent her voice grates on me when I hear it. I am trying to phase out the friendship but she seems to be everywhere we go and tries to invite herself to our house after school every day. I am of course as lovely to her as I am to my own dd even though when she tugs on me whining 'Panda' it is like nails down a blackboard in my brain!

Does anyone else feel like this about any of their young dcs friends? I feel genuine affection towards her other friends so it is quite uncomfortable for me to feel such intense dislike for a 4 year old!

some parents the little girl has, and the mum has the gall to give you a catsbum face because you dare discipline hurter little princess because she done wrong. She should be doing that anyway, not you, but yes you are well within your rights to tell the girl off if you see she is hurting your children.

Piglet I've already said I just have a different outlook.
Perhaps this is just down to semantics, but I personally don't intensely dislike anyone. What can I say?

Me neither, but if a kids was horrid and unpleasant I most definitely would.

I don't know if it's just MN but it seems as though parents expect less of 4yr olds now days...and tend to put a bit too much down to bad behaviour because 'they're only 4'.

I was reading a thread the other day and loads of Mums were saying a child shouldn't be told off for stealing at toy at that age...because 'they're only 4'

On another thread about a child being kept off school, on poster said "The child probably won't even know if it's a school day or the weekend because they're only 4"

Therefore I wonder if a lot of kids are never told off or given any kind of punishment for really bad behaviour 'because they're only 4'

you're lucky chicletteeth. I think it's when they consistently spoil everyone's fun, cause trouble in a really sneaky way and you have to deal with the carnage they leave behind. I could go on for hours with what he did, including ripping ds's books, getting ds to tell me dd had died (really strange one), trashing ds's bedroom, and i don't just mean a few toys on the floor, toys were smashed, everything thrown out of wardrobe, drawers, toybox, bookcase, kicking dd in head. He was a nightmare. He will probably grow up to be fine, but I wasn't waiting around to find out.

You are perfectly resonable to not inflict this child on your kids. I think her mum needs a wakeup call and if you give it her you could actually be helping this girl who is obviously not being taught to behave properly. You need to tell the mum in no uncertain terms that you will not put your children through this anymore and unless she takes a handle
On her child's behaviour there will be no more playdates. Your kids are more important than her feelings so please do this and you'll feel so much better.

This kid sounds like way too much work. Back off and dont have her round again and dont feel bad!
When she asks, you simply say "not today"
When she asks again you say "not today"
and so on.
If this leaves her without any friends hopefully her parents will finally understand and have stern words with her.
You do need to transform your dislike of her into some concern though. Its her parents lack of guidance thats the problem here. Focus on that in your head not your personal feelings.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all to intensly dislike this child. I do think you're being unreasonable to continue to inflict her on your children for the sake of social nicety. If it was me I would cut all contact and tell the mother why.

Children are people same as any others - their youth does not make them inherently likeable. There are several of my children's friends whom I would cheerfully never clap eyes on again. It's a real struggle when they come around to the house and I hear them whine "Goooooosey" not to respond with the first words that come to mind!

I'm finding myself in this position at the moment. I have a friend who I really, really like. But her son is somewhat manipulative, very rude, and has no respect for adults whatsoever. He's thoughtlessly violent to other children and his own siblings (spits, pushes, headlocks etc), and ignores his mother with impunity. He quite deliberately winds up other children and presses their buttons, and then has the gall to turn on the waterworks when they eventually snap. He's very immature and is enabled in that behaviour by my friend who does absolutely everything for him and (obviously, as she is his parent!) thinks the son shines out of his every orifice. She is utterly ineffectual in disciplining him on the rare occasions that she does actually try, and as a result he's not a very nice child to be around. I don't encourage my son to play with him even though they're in the same class, and even though we do try and spend time together occasionally as families (sunday lunch, that sort of thing). He's also the child with the vile table manners that I've posted about before, which again she seems to find impossible to correct "There's just nothing I can do" Yes there is, start being a stricter and more consistent parent - it's not rocket science! I've come to the conclusion that if we're all together and he's doing stuff to them that I won't allow my own ds to do (fighting, being deliberately cruel etc) then I'll just step in myself. It's not fair on the other children for this boy to get away with the things he does.

I just don't understand how my otherwise lovely friend accepts such low standards of behaviour for her son, and more to the point, how she can't see that she's enabling him and that this is why she's lost at least two other friends over the past 18 months.

I loathed one of my daughter's friends from the time we first met her when she was 3. I honestly had not believed until that time that a child could be so manipulative and deceitful. I did feel that I was a dreadful person to feel this way towards a child but her behavior was so bad I could not help it. Eventually and to my immense relief she moved from the area. YANBU.

This is not a friend for your DD, this is a pain in the arse. Tell her that she only gets to come into your house under certain conditions, and if she doesnt live up to them she goes away. 4 is old enough to understand.

In order to "get rid" you need to say something to the Mum, preferably just after an incident occurs (such as your son getting hurt). Tell her you can't have your DC playing anymore because of X Y Z. Then IF the little girl asks just say no and make an excuse. They will eventually get the hint (if the direct route doesn't work!).

What about the Mum's who are clearly oblivious...? I put up with a friends daughter pushing around and hitting my child for a while then I ended up arresting the 'bad' kids behaviour in front of her Mother as she was not allowing it to be stopped....or there were pathetic attempts to stop the brats bad behaviour by the Mother. Its up to us to protect our kids, I gave the brat's Mother a chance, but she is not strong enough to deal with such a wilful little horror....will wait and see if the Mum says anything to me.....

I have only socialised with her out of school once in ages when her mum asked us to go round to cut her birthday cake but we walk home the same way so we see her every day. I have been saying no to coming round to the house.
DD seems to quite like her although she isn't actually violent with her just rough like she grabs her and holds her and won't let her go.
I'm sure the mum (or dad) will ask eventually why we're avoiding them and I will be honest although I doubt it will make any difference. The friend she had before my dd and her mum cut contact with them for the same reason.

Because they come out of school together every day. We went round for birthday cake because dd really wanted to and I felt mean that her friend would be having her cake on her own. But she was horrible to ds and it was the final straw really. Other than that I have been avoiding them when at all possible despite several texts from the mum and dad asking us to go round/meet up.
I will still see her every week day though unless I change dd's school which I'm not prepared to do as it's an excellent school and she's v happy and settled there.

I think you should be honest with the parents, as uncomfortable as that would be. It would be in the dds best interests I think.

Hmm. This may be pure projection, but your OP could have been written about a dear friend of mine and her appallingly behaved daughter 2 years ago. Everyone got fed up with them and used to try and avoid situations where their children played with this little girl, she was so antisocial, seemingly brattish, and often violent. 2 years down the line and friends daughter has been diagnosed with all sorts of medical and behavioural problems which the family are now getting help with.

The little girl you describe sounds unusually "brattish" even for a 4 yr old. Perhaps there is more to it?

I am glad I stuck by my friend. Not saying you have to too, as it doesn't sound as though you are fond of the mother in your case, but don't be too harsh in writing them off.

I would suspect behavioural problems apart from the fact that I think if my dd never had any consequence for behaving badly she would be exactly the same!
For example she will be pinning dd to the floor and her mum will (maybe) tell her to stop it. She will either ignore her or say 'no' and that's that until I say something like 'if you don't play nicely we're going to have to go home' then she will let go of her!

I should say that she will let go and likely cry causing her mum to give me cats bum face.

So her mum gives you the face for telling her dd not to pin yours to the floor? That's awful! That child is going to have no boundaries and will grow up to be a xxxxxx xxxx!

There is a child like that at my dds school. I wasn't sure if he had behavioural problems but the other day (as I posted on here somewhere) the mum told me off and gave me a dirty look for reminding my dc to behave. She thought I should just let them get on with it as they are just kids "leave them alone!" she said to me, and I hadn't even spoken to her child! It gave me a good idea of how she thought children should be disciplined . . . not at all! and explained why her dc behaved as he did. It's him that will suffer. She even laughs in the face of the teachers when they tell her the awful things he has done.

Yeah they don't like their dd being told off at all. On the rare occasion they do tell her off she gets upset which maybe puts them off doing it. She has both parents wrapped around her finger basically. The mum has told me she's not been happy when her teacher has disciplined her either (which is having your name put on a square in their school!).
I might be harsh but it wouldn't really concern me if dd got upset when I disciplined her for doing something wrong - she's not supposed to like it.

You just reminded me of my SIL! Went round to play one day and her DD was mean to mine. My DH assumed it was ours being naughty and started to tell her off. I said "actually no what happened was etc" and SIL said "No my XXXXXX never does that!" and pulled the cat bum face. I didn't want to start an argument so let it go but to this day feel guilty that I didn't stick up for my DD properly just because SIL thinks her dcs do no wrong.

I think it's just for an easy life sometimes. If she takes something from someone they will ask her to give it back but if she doesn't they will just leave it to avoid the tears and tantrums. It gives them an easy life in the short term but then her mum says to me that she drives her mad because she won't follow instructions. I told her that I often have to give dd the choice of following instructions or a negative consequence (toy removal, not going to the park etc) and then she does as she's told and she said that there's no point threatening to take toys off her cos she's got so many that she wouldn't notice .