To think Cage fighting for eight year olds

[Springyknickersohnovicars]

Should be illegal?

Children as young as six are taking up the controversial sport of "cage fighting", alarming medical experts and sports officials.

The violent sport, also known as "ultimate fighting" , combines martial arts, wrestling and boxing but with few rules often looks like little more than a brawl.

It has come over here from the states, parents are in a club, drinking, baying for the chldren to carry on fighting even when they've been hurt.

I know it is legal, and it shouldnt be IMO but what kind of "parents" want their children cage fighting? What chance have these children got in life? I wonder what should be done to protect these children?

Or do some think it's no worse than boxing?

I don't know much about martial arts, but I thought the eastern arts are about self defence, whereas cage fighting is about beating the crap out of each other in front of a baying crowd? That is certainly what it seemed like when my husband had a match with Alex Reid on a few months ago??

beertrickspotter- what would worry me about having young children doing it, is that it would give them the impression that it is acceptable to go around beating each other up, and that this is a fun thing to do. It is all just a bit tasteless.

How is any competitive based martial art about self-defence? Their real world application may be but if it was purely about self-defence then neither competitor in a competition would ever make an attacking move and the other competitor would not need to act in self-defence, in fact they wouldn't show up because most martial arts teach you to never go looking for a fight, as would any reputable gym teaching MMA.

and once again youth MMA bouts don't allow striking, so beating the crap out of each other for a "baying crowd" doesn't really seem applicable.

As I said- I know very little about martial arts of any kind, but there certainly seems to be something unpleasant about encouraging children to do this for adult enterntainment. I know a couple of guys who are fans, hence why we had that Alex Reid fight on, and they do not watch it to critique the fighters technique!

and lots of people watch F1 hoping to see crashes.

clearly , if you take away your disgust at the headlines, and realise the headline is actually false, you should see this is a non striking martial art exhibitionthat both kids enjoyed

Some points i want to make

1. I have seen some people criticize the MMA cage because of its connotations, however, using logic will tell you that the cage is there to ensure people dont fall out, when people are grappling the momentum can push people backwards whilst defending takedowns.

As seen in boxing, youtube "junior witter prizefighter

1. This match was an exhibition match, sort of a reward for the children having done well in their kids tournaments. It wasnt as if the adults paid to see the kids beat each other up like many falsely believe and when the kids were there, the full fight video clearly shows admiration from the audience at the techniques the children displayed

The audience were encouraging the great techniques and transitions seen, they werent telling the kids to punch and kick each other. The kids get a round of applause as they're both declared winners.

1. The child who cries, is usually succesful in kids competitions, so he got upset that he was being dominated, we see kids get upset when losing in football, he is asked independantly if he wanted to continue, he said yes, thats much better than parents pushing kids at football

1. This was a safe non striking sport, its actually much safer than judo and karate, as judo has flips an throws that can be wild, and karate permits strikes. Unfortunately, people think a martial art isnt a martial art if there is no gi involved, which is ignorant.

This was about grappling .. There was no punching or kicking like some seem to ignorantly believe.

1. Ive seen people criticize MMA, yet acknowledge boxing, whilst ignoring that boxing is proven to be riskier , there are also more serious injuries in rugby, gymnastics or cheerleading than there are in mma.

Some people ignorantly will see an mma go to the ground and think its a street brawl, ignoring the art of jiu jitsu and wrestling.

Im a fan of MMA & Boxing, if you aren't I understand it. You can think its barbaric, Ok, but it requires a lot of hard work and discipline, and the majority of fighters are good men. This isnt about our opinions on MMA, this is about ignorance in thinking children who are clearly doing grappling being labelled scum cage fighters.

1. The BMA have published a report previously on mma, however the report is full of flaws, many could have been corrected via a google search, so I have no respect for their opinion. They refer to the sport as ultimate fighting, a brand name, which is like calling the sport of football - "premier league". Their study also didnt use real fights, they used probable physics.

1. The recent riots show kids needs discipline and self control. These children showed great discipline and technique, the no striking is evidence of that. Martial Arts are known for discipline, this was a martial events exhibition, the term cage fighting was used in this case to create disgust

(wrongly so)

I've been to a few expos and muscle expos, and met quite a few pro fighters, most dont drink, they domt do drugs, they eat properly, their aggression goes out on an opponent during a fight, after a fighg is over they have respect for each other, many end up training with each other

People involved in martial arts and mma tend to be those that actually have the best discipline and self control. The majority are polite , honest people, they arent barbaric thugs as the ignorant world thinks.

1. The intention isnt to actually hurt, and both kids have said that the match didnt hurt them , and they enjoy doing it , some might ask that how do you know the kids arent being pushed into it ? But we can say that with every activity a child does. This wrestling is certainly better than wwe rubbish

1. Perhaps the venue was wrong, but then again, it was a reward exhibition match. I believe there was no need for this at an adult mma evet

I personally would never have a kids exhibition match at an adults mma event, knowing people are drinking, their are ring girls, but what happened in the cage itself was actually a lot of talented technique

The promoter got it so wrong by having this as a reward

10. The media have gotten this wrong completely, this is no MMA or "cage fighting" , its grappling, there was no pain or hurt caused to the children, both enjoyed the experience.

But Nope, people wont actually research, they'll believe anything newspapers tell us.

Anyone with any sense of martial arts
would have realised in seconds that it wasnt an MMA bout, but a safe, no striking art.

If you just look at the venue and crowd, you' be ok to think how disgusting, but if you actually pay attention, you'll see admiration for the techniques

They should research and find out that this weekend, one of the biggest grappling events in the world takes place in nottingham

I had a long criminal caution record and got excluded at schools when younger, if it wasnt for brazilian jiu jitsu teaching me discipline and self control , I'd probably be in jail. I wish It was around even 5 years prior. My fitness has never been better, and importanty, I have more discipline than the average person.

Very good post there Jsingh.

My first reaction to this was 'OMG, Barbaric'. I think the press have sensationalised it as they usually do. They dealt with this on the Wright Show this morning and had articulate people commenting who are involved in this kind or sport. It really didn't look that bad once you got by ' the cage' which was explained as being safer than a boxing ring. The actual action just looked like judo/ jujitsu which I would have no problem with. I'm not so outraged now as some valid points were put forward which made me rethink my stance on it.

Martial arts are okay for kids, I'd even go so far as to say boxing can be an acceptable sport for older kids when done correctly (I make the point to say older kids as too young you're potentially looking at serious harm being done from potential head injury) - but what we're going to be seeing is more younger kids taking part in this and getting seriously hurt.

The films showed barely concious 8 year old's with head wounds - that is obviously it's not a safe sport for children, hell it's not safe for adults and that's half the point of the sport!

The sad thing is that once something like this starts, once human being step over lines like this, there really is no stopping it - making it illegal will just drive it underground. In countries like the UK it may be more realistic to stop it, but looking at the countries where it originates this is far less likely to stop.

Kasha, I believe you are just going by image, and not what actually happens, I sort of wanted to ignore your post but You say you'd let older kids do boxing ?

At a glance, mma looks more dangerous, but using facts and figures (reports that actually looked at real fights, and not possible situations such as the bma did). I feel I need to inform you as to why you're wrong

Boxing - 1 target - the head
Mma - the entire body, not just the head, but brazilian jiu jitsu means you look at submissions too

MMA gloves are smaller , less protection for the hand, but a powerful shot will knock down an opponent

The boxing glove, padded to keep your hand safe, but since its bigger, opponent wont go down, this glove gives identical power as the mma glove, except you will take 10-20 times as many, maybe more

Dont get me started on the 10 count in boxing

British journal of sports medicine found 10% boxers get concussions, opposed to 1.5% in mma , there has very rarely been serious injury in mma, most injuries are minor facial lacerations

We will see some injuries, but not at the rate you imagine, you often see much worse on weekend kids football than you do in kids martial arts classes

Judo & Karate have been taught for years .. No fuss , this is the exact same thing, except safer and minus a gi .. But because 1 promoter wrongly put an exhibition match on at an mma event , its as if its a dangerous underground thing that has gone mainstream

We are going to see more and more kids doing this in gyms, where they try and make a safe environment (as much as poss)

In a controlled environment, this will provide kids with discipline and self control, for a minority who do it, it wont work

But having been through trouble, and then through martial arts .. My only regret is not doing it before i got into trouble

Though I am comparin mma and boxing, I have shown that mma is safer than boxing

Now Grappling is clearly safer than MMA due to its no striking rules

Again .. Most in the martial arts world have criticized it for being at an mma event, but if you look past the cage, you'll see its not cage fighting, and a barbaric atmosphere

Now, this grappling happens in gyms all around the world, but the common person doesnt think its a martial art if its not in a gi

Despite it being safer than karate (strikes permitted)

Grappling is without a doubt, a martial art, and like other MA's, will teach kids discipline and self control

If it wasnt for poor journalism sensationalizing this, I believe most parents who get martial arts would understand that

my DS does wrestling - has done from the age of about 6.

The grappling in the cage fighting is almost exactly the same as in wrestling, but I do agree that the "atmosphere" of the cage fighting, with the ring girls etc. was not suited for a children's tournament.

The shouts of encouragement by the adults is very similar to wrestling tournaments (without the beer!)

this is the Mail's article scroll down to see video of the bout itself

was going to say, that what they are doing in the cage fighting is NOT dangerous in anyway. Wrestling has a very low incident of injury, even compared to judo...

about the crying, happens a LOT in wrestling, especially among players of this age (7, 8 year olds). Happens a lot in football, rugby, etc. when they get frustrated about not playing well.

You don't see 12 year olds crying when they lose a wrestling match. And the younger ones, 3 to 5 years old, for example, often just collapse into giggles!

Ok here's my take.

Someone mentioned class again - why? This issue is not about whether or not it is a working class sport, it's about whether or not it should be allowed. The next person to mention class I swear I will go round and give a good kicking too!

Now the issue of children - this is my opinion.
I have a 7yr old ds, nearly 8. He is fully a child. He enjoys playing with Lego and doing all the things that children should do. I would never ever sign him up for any kind of contact sport because I believe that is sending out a very wrong message - that violence is ok.

Adults are able to take responsibility for themselves - children rely on us to take responsibility. If an adult is hurt they decide whether to carry on or not, if a child is hurt they often look to an adult to make that decision for them.

Children are not independent at the age of 8. They do not make decisions on their own. They do not have the same awareness of consequences. Therefore putting children into an adult cage to participate in an adult sport in front of other adults is wrong.

I don't care what sport it is, if it is generally biased towards the adults then it is wrong to put children in that position.

The scantily clad women are a different issue, but again it's an example of taking a child out of their childhood and placing them well and truly into an adult word.

This case exposes the unregulations behind these contact sports. There are not enough clear and firm guidelines concerning children and contact sports and there should be.

I'm not saying that all children should be banned from doing these sports, but there should be guidelines there to protect children from the decisions that adults make on their behalf. Under the age of 16 no child should be forced to take part in a contact sport that is for the entertainment of adults only. They should not be entered into competitions at the age of 8 and the sport should not be held in a working mans club.

I would ask Pete and others if they feel that there should be tougher guidelines regarding children and contact sport?

Under the age of 16 no child should be forced to take part in a contact sport that is for the entertainment of adults only.

There was an interview with the father of one of the boys involved, where he said

• There was no kicking or punching
• It was just wrestling
• The boy was not forced to do it
• The boy really enjoys the sport
• It's safe and controlled

So he wasn't forced to take part; it wasn't a 'contact sport' in the sense of hitting or kicking; and the children themselves love the sport so it's not 'for the entertainment of adults only'.

I'm a bit shocked at the way all this furore has completely ignored the statements of the adults who were there - eg the organiser who said one boy was crying not because he'd been hurt or forced to be there, but because he lost the bout when he usually wins. Or the parents, who know their children and should be best-placed to judge whether they're being harmed or not. We weren't there. We don't know the people involved. How can we claim to know better?

As I said before, it's not really my scene. But it is some people's scene. As long as it's safe, who are we to judge? If I were an 8-year-old boy growing up in Preston, whose parents socialised at the local Labour club, and who had recently taken up MMA at a gym were there were lots of other boys and men doing MMA too; if I'd started competing, and I'd heard that there would be a competition event at that club, where lots of the older guys from my gym had been competing; if my parents had given me permission to take part in the competition as well along with all the big boys, I'd have been totally, utterly thrilled.

I really do think all this talk about it being 'barbaric', 'cruel', 'treating the children like circus animals' etc is over-wrought nonsense.

Wolef, of course the boys parents say that he isn't forced to do it, they would wouldn't they?

My main point is that children do not have the same comprehension and understanding that adults have. At 8 years of age they lack the mental capacity to make completely independent decisions. They are very much dependent on the adults around them to provide a safe environment for them to grow up in.

Therefore how can an 8 year old make an informed decision about whether or not to cage fight with another boy in a competition?

It is still a contact sport even if there are no punches thrown and the fact that medics were there illustrates that the organisers thought there was a risk of the children getting hurt. So again I ask you, how can a child of that age make an informed decision, taking in all the risk factors, about whether or not to proceed?

I find that in most sports that involve children, it's got very little to do with the actual children involved and more to do with their parents.

So two grown adults have spoken out on behalf of an 8 year old boy - so that's ok then? Again it illustrates how this is more to do with the adults involved than the children.

I guess where we differ is that to me the risk factors looked pretty trivial. It's just a wrestling match, after all, and I'm willing to bet most healthy 8-year-old boys wrestle with their peers like that all the time without national newspapers getting involved.

You have medics on hand at Pony Club gymkhanas too, and parents yelling encouragement from the sidelines. Does that mean the Pony Club should be investigated by police as well, and parents held to account for forcing their children to take part when they're not old enough to understand the risk factors involved?

You can't compare Pony Clubs to contact sports. The risk factor is actually considerably higher. Even in playfighting one of the boys usually ends up hurt and crying which is why I tend to step in because I know from experience how these things end up. I cannot imagine as a parent watching this kind of fighting and actually encouraging it.

It is an adult sport. These children were not doing this for the benefit of their peers, it was part of a competition for adults arranged by adults. It's like putting kids in an adult horse riding competition, you just wouldn't do it would you? The arena was not altered to take into account their young ages, they had no protective gear (I presume when kids go horse riding they do) and were surrounded by a closed in crowd of shouting adults along with scantily clad women. The children did not make an informed choice about participating in that competition under those circumstances, their parents did that for them.

It would maybe be a mistake to compare a Pony Club gymkhana to an adult MMA bout, but if I were to weigh up the comparative risk of injury between a carefully monitored wrestling match (which is what this was - not a 'cage fight' - and a relatively inexperienced child rider jumping obstacles on horseback I'd probably say the wrestling was safer. Sure, you might get the odd cut or sprain from wrestling but the risk of really serious injury from riding, while relatively rare, is far higher especially as there are animals involved.

It's been said plenty of times that for children MMA is just wrestling. They don't get to do the contact (kicking, punching) elements until they're older. So while the rest of the competition may have involved adults doing these things, for the children it was just that - a wrestling bout. The comparison is not with putting children in an adult Grand Prix showjumping competition but with letting children take part in a gymkhana open to riders of different standards, in the appropriate junior class.

The question is whether you want children to wrestle on the ground cheered on by adult spectators with a view to teaching the how to punch and kick when they are older?

It's a grimier, dirtier sport than pony riding. Which is why it's mainly for adults only. Not kids. I wouldn't even take my kids into a working mans club let alone let them wrestle for the amusement of the adults there.

The environment is wrong. I still think that this is all about the adults and the kids have little choice.

People's problem with this basically boils down to class prejudice, doesn't it? All this talk of it being "grimy and dirty". As far as I understand it, the boys were doing Mixed Martial Arts - which does have specific rules, they're not just brawling on the ground. I doubt many people would have a problem with their children learning judo or karate - this is little different.