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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that rights/wrongs aside, a council needing to make £300m cuts should focus it's funds somewhere other than evicting gypsies?

744 replies

Blubell · 19/09/2011 12:32

I know there are massive fors and againsts in the Dale Farm evictions, and I don't want to start a big travellers debate, but in this time of austerity measures, and the fact that Essex council needs to cut £300m in 3 years, is evicting the site now, when it's a case that has been going on for 10 years really the best way to spend the little cash they have? Its been reported it's going to cost the council £18m to return the site - which used to be a scrapyard so hardly a place of outstanding beauty - back to greenbelt, how many carers, libraries etc will be lost to fund that? Just a thought.......

OP posts:
Andrewofgg · 28/09/2011 15:03

onagar :o

ScarahStratton · 28/09/2011 15:14

Odd how Bubbles, who is married to a traveller disagrees with you there Alice (and Math).

^bubbles4 Fri 23-Sep-11 22:50:32
SarahStratton,sorry I missed your post,thank you for your kind words,I do try to play fair,I will shout "racist" when I see it but as yet I havent seen much on this thread.^

Just to remind you of that, seeing as it's been posted by an MN member,who is possibly the most qualified to see racism/bigotry on this thread.

bubbles4 · 28/09/2011 16:28

ScarahStratton,not a traveller but a Romany gypsy.

All these threads are no longer a discussion but have turned into traveller bashing threads,one of the other Dale Farm threads being the worst.
Apparently the Police announced last week that internet sites are being closely monitored for racism against the travellers,some that I have seen is horrific and makes me wonder that if the travellers are being obnoxious,is it in response to the treatment that they have received at the hands of local residents.

bubbles4 · 28/09/2011 16:34

I also got in a spat on another Dale Farm thread with a racist bigot.

ScarahStratton · 28/09/2011 16:36

Sorry, yes you did say Romany, I should have checked before posting. I'm not really surprised re the monitoring, some of the stuff posted in the DM comments section have been toe curling.

ScarahStratton · 28/09/2011 16:38

I think I probably came across as one of those at the start. I've learnt a hell of a lot on these threads though.

I just wish Math and Alice would get off their high horses and actually digest what others put, and realise their POV isn't the only one.

mathanxiety · 28/09/2011 16:38

The ins and outs of retrospective pp and legal indemnity coverage explained.

From a helpful advice forum:

'It depends exactly what work your Solicitor has done (if any).
These things come up quite often ..your Solicitor notes there's an extension and asks the current owner for copies of the planning permission...

Needless to say, if the house has changed hands a few time, current owners know nothing about the Extn. and don't have paperwork ..

So the questions you have to ask are :-

  1. Does it NEED planning permission ??
  2. If it's needed, was Permission applied for & granted when it was built ? (have to ask local council for this)
  3. If didn't have permission, can retrospective permission be granted now ?

Reasons why you might not want to dig too much ..
a) the extension might not meet some obscure regulation and the council will refuse permission and demand you modify it or demolish it (for example, some older cottages had quite low ceilings .. there is now a minimum height .. but chances are any extension will have been built with the same ceiling height as existing rooms)
b) if you discover any problems (a), you will have to inform the Mortgage company and they may reduce or even withdraw your Mortgage offer ..
c) if the Local Council was unaware of the extension (but it's OK), they will revalue the property and this might push it up into the next Council Tax band ..

Reason why you DO want to dig ..
a) when you come to sell, the buyer is going to be asking exactly the same questions you are asking ...'

-- Here the writer seems not to care as much about the planning process as the financial aspect of the planning process. This smacks of cynicism to me.

On temporary buildings and rpp from a company that rents out temporary buildings:
'Depending upon how long you plan to have your temporary building on site, it may well have come and gone before the planning officer is even aware you?ve had one....
...You should obtain permission. However, you can have the building installed, and then make a retrospective application, if the planning officer asks you to do so.
And this is the way the vast majority of our customers go about it. Because if you make the application before you have the building installed, it can and most probably will, take months and months - time you probably do not have?
And given the majority of people who hire our buildings generally need it without delay, you probably won't have the time to wait for the endless delays of the planning process.'

-- Expediency? Cynicism? A practical solution to a problem that arises when planning offices fail to take account that time constraints affect certain industries? The red tape issue is also illustrated by the wendy house lunacy you mentioned.

Drawing and Planning Ltd. offers rpp consulting services:

'Residential C3 (Flat or house) Retrospective Planning Package Includes:

Existing elevations
Existing floor plans
Photo Survey identifying changes made
Design and Access statement (conservation report if necessary)
Site plan
Ordnance Survey (OS) map
Aerial Photos
Submission of a retrospective planning application'

"call now for a free retrospective planning consultation"

Low impact woodland house/ council and neighbours turning a blind eye...
'..our planning departments do not have a general remit to enforce against unpermitted development, only to process applications and follow up on complaints. This is a significant retention of liberty and common sense. If I get a piece of land and build a monstrous palace which I use as a base for having excessively loud parties, my neighbours will probably complain to the council who will demand a retrospective application which they'd refuse and then serve an enforcement order for me to demolish the building. On the other hand, if I build a modest and discreet house on a piece of land somewhere and if all my neighbours have no problem with what I am doing, the need to make a planning application will not arise. In this case, after 10 years the building and change of use will be eligible for a certificate of lawful use, meaning a planning application is not needed. If there is not a change of use, lawful use is granted after 4 years....I would currently recommend development followed by a retrospective application as required, preferably in Pembrokeshire, as the best approach for individual or groups wishing start a new low impact living project.'

-- In other words:'What the council doesn't know won't hurt it' ??

Many posters on this forum discussing their exp of rpp across five pages.

These issues tend to come up as a potential problem when property goes on the market, whereas when the owners were living their daily lives in the properties nobody was any the wiser about the various modifications, etc. -- indicating that what can be gleaned from various fora on the matter is just the tip of the iceberg and that there is plenty of ignoring of the planning process going on.

Asa mentioned earlier, insurance companies offer legal indemnity policies without batting an eyelid.

Cynical? That is in the eye of the beholder, as your post implies, Lesley -- you do not find anything cynical in the examples you found. But if you don't accept the term cynical when applied to homeowners and businesses or to businesses making money from clients who have decided to go this route, why is 'cynical' ok to use in reference to Travellers' use of retrospective pp, when Travellers know their pp applications before building are going to be turned down 90% of the time? Why does the beholder find cynicism in what the Travellers do and not what others do?

mathanxiety · 28/09/2011 16:39

Apologies to LadyBeagle for the C&Ping.

ScarahStratton · 28/09/2011 16:41
LadyBeagleEyes · 28/09/2011 16:59

I'm just skipping your posts now Math Grin
You're just so um earnest.
Instead of spending all your time c&ping on here you could be going out, you know, having fun or something.
There's also lots of fun threads you could join in on MN. We have an X Factor thread and even a drunk one.
G'wan, you know you want to.

ScarahStratton · 28/09/2011 17:08

I don't read them either. I find it helps my blood pressure no end.

bubbles4 · 28/09/2011 17:14

i,m sorry but I dont understand half of them.

mathanxiety · 28/09/2011 17:35

Poaching - includes hare coursing, and shooting. The explanation of Travellers was that it was ?natural?.
-- Hare coursing and shooting are traditional country pastimes enjoyed by the upper classes and rural residents of Britain and Ireland for centuries, all of whom think it is natural or fun or whatever.
Do you object here to the poaching or to the killing of animals as a form of 'sport'?
Because both coursing and shooting are legal.

Bare fist fighting - Seen as a tradition and bets are placed, not viewed as an illegal practice by Gypsies and Travellers.
-- and this is horrific because there should be gloves involved? Or because there shouldn't be betting?
Save your umbrage for something that's really disturbing.

Shoplifting and money-back -Items are taken from a store and then brought back for reimbursement. Viewed as a ?harmless? crime.
And never done, not even once, by anyone else. Nope, this is what Travellers do and Travellers only. I realise the debate on the propriety of stealing food and eating it in supermarkets has been done to death before and have no wish to revisit it, but there are plenty of MNers who think allowing children to eat comestibles such as grapes-- in supermarkets without paying for them is perfectly justified as it is a harmless crime/ better for the DCs than fruitshoots/ better for other shoppers than suffering the tantrums of the little darlings. Or whatever.

Conning old people - Either through undertaking unnecessary ?repairs? or stealing through deception and disguise. Dawson found the travelling community suggested that old people should not be left to fend for themselves and therefore it was society?s fault.
-- It is true that the Travellers think old people should be taken care of by their families and not left to fend for themselves. (This is why they insist on living in extended family groups themselves.) Not having the survey in front of me it is hard to comment on the specific justifications alleged for crime against the elderly, but I will take your word for it that the findings are as you reported (would you care to post a link?).
Again, I would like to point out that there are elder abuse hotlines whose existence indicates that Travellers are not the only potential problem the elderly have to worry about, repeated warnings to the elderly about scams and theft that do not involve Travellers, lots of concerns expressed by people around the age of many posters here about their older parents and how gullible some of them are to scams on the internet (some threads here on MN recently on this specific topic), charity scams, dating site scams, etc. Elder abuse starts at home more often than not.

Thefts from old people - Burglary of old people?s savings from their home, similar explanation to above.
-- Similar point to above too: are Travellers the only people who burglarise older peoples' homes? Who else does it and why? It boils down to the fact that they are often easy targets for whoever is intent on robbing them. My mother's house has been broken into twice, once while she was still resisting the idea of installing an alarm system on the grounds that it would cost too much, and once afterwards. She is a very easy target as she lives alone and leaves her emergency beeping thing upstairs and neatly put away during the day and her hearing is not great.

Tarmac scams - Quote one price before the job, and then demand extra money, with menaces, upon completion. Explanation to Dawson, was that this was ?good business?.
LOL. If you've ever dealt with anyone doing small home repairs or any kind of construction work on your home, this is par for the course. Taking the 'with menaces' at face value, there is such a thing as a tradesman's lien, a menacing and perfectly legal device that enables a tradesman to hold you over a barrel, there are unforeseen problems that crop up (electrical, blah blah, that will need more work that anticipated and more money to accomplish the suddenly discovered work) and there is also the shrug and 'well if you can't come up with the money we'll have to leave the project as it is' method of extortion. And as for tracking down your shyster-- small builder afterwards to take him to court to finish or repair his work or refund you for grossly overcharged materials...

Antique scams - Offer a good price for one antique and then a very low price on others, having gained the person?s confidence with the first price. Travellers? explanation was that people shouldn?t be greedy.
-- Whereas non-Travellers' explanation for the same sort of scam is? I have taken items to different antique dealers and got astronomically different valuations from them. There are a lot of dealers who shouldn't be greedy. imo.

Antique theft - Following the above, burglary is carried out in homes where good antiques have been identified.
-- Something what would never occur to anyone other than a Traveller to do? Burglary of homes where good antiques are identified is not just accomplished by Travellers. An aunt of mine suffered a string of burglaries and blamed the families and friends of various cleaning ladies and nursing aides she had employed. Her suspicions were confirmed.

Social security frauds - People claiming under multiple names and addresses. Explained that ?everybody does it?.
-- I suspect that would not be too far from the general population's take on welfare and benefit fraud.

Vehicle crime - Theft and ?ringing?. Travellers claimed it didn?t harm anyone because it was covered by their insurance.
-- And insurance fraud is never done by anyone other than Travellers?

Caravan theft - Sometimes involved claiming on insurance and then getting back the caravan and having it stolen again.
-- This was never done by anyone else besides Travellers, ever, in the history of the earth.

Some Travellers commit crimes. They have some sort of justification for their crimes.

Some members of the general population commit crimes. Presumably they also have some sort of justification for their crimes.

Why does the justification offered matter?

bubbles4 · 28/09/2011 17:39

I have seen that survey that cookcleanerchaufferetc quotes and she has omitted the parts that state only a small minority of travellers commit these crimes and lets face it any of those crimes are also commited by the settled community.

mathanxiety · 28/09/2011 17:41

That is what I suspected, Bubbles.

That post of hers counts as the sort of piling in that contributes to vilification and demonising of Travellers.

mathanxiety · 28/09/2011 17:42

What is your justification for posting that litany, Cookcleanerchaufferu?

AnneWiddecomesArse · 28/09/2011 17:56

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chocolatehobnobs · 28/09/2011 18:00

Math - I don't think these types of crime are "par for the course" - none of our tradesmen have demanded more money for work done with menaces. I don't think shoplifting and money-back scams refers to toddlers eating grapes either. It's not the same. I really think you have too much to say for yourself - you are coming over as pompous.

chocolatehobnobs · 28/09/2011 18:01

PS Grin at onagar's last post

AnneWiddecomesArse · 28/09/2011 18:04

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mathanxiety · 28/09/2011 18:10

Do you think being mixed race means you can't be a racist, AWA?

I can't tell you why you can't get hold of the police. Maybe they are being secretly paid by the Travellers to look the other way, decline to pursue, etc. Maybe they are all Freemasons and this is some sort of Plot.

'Poor diddums are scared' is really ridiculous.

You are coming across as someone who doesn't actually know what racism is, or someone who assumes it can only be done by white people against people of another race.
And you also come across as someone who is about to go postal.

Cookcleanerchauffeur --
Why are the crimes you listed not par for the course?
How is stealing food from a shop and thinking nothing of it any different in principle from the refund scam?

mathanxiety · 28/09/2011 18:19

So you don't mind about the caged children?

At the risk of being accused of pomposity or being tedious, here are some statistics from Refuge on the subjugation of women in the UK,
and here is something for you to think about before you start in on Travellers for failures in the area of education.
'Children from white working-class backgrounds are the most underachieving ethnic group; just 17% of disadvantaged white boys attain 5 or more A-Cs at GCSE compared to a 56% national average. Only 19% of Black Caribbean boys obtain 5 or more A- C at GCSE.'

Notacitychick · 28/09/2011 18:51

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AnneWiddecomesArse · 28/09/2011 19:05

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aliceliddell · 28/09/2011 20:05

Criminal behaviour like shoplifting is not an inherent aspect of any ethnic/cultural identity; you could give examples of all the crimes committed by every racial/ethnic group; it's nothing to do with being a Traveller and much the same thing has been said about Black people. By racists.
I do not accept comments about being on a 'high horse'. My political opinion is that most posters on this subject are prejudiced. There is a genuine conflict of cultures and the majority are dominating the minority using a legal system which inherently favours the majority.