...to support the separation of church and state?

[ella1983]

Earlier today, I signed this petition calling for the church and state to be separated, as I believe that in today's Britain, it's wrong to privilege a single faith above all others.

Do you think this is a reasonable position to take?

I would agree. I dislike the entire foundation of our current Church in any event. It only exists because that bastard Henry VIII could get divorced from Katherine of Aragon.

I really don't think it will make a difference. In the USA there is a legal separation between church and state but religion has far more influence on people's daily lives (both public and private).

The mainland UK is very much a secular society. And in parts of the UK "Bible Bashing" takes on a new meaning... any hint of going to church or believing in God and people are ready to bash you .

I strongly suspect that religion in the USA is strongly linked to its history, especially the influence of Puritanism.

FWIW, yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm also not particularly happy about faith schools. I'm aware that some of them perform very well but I'd really rather the money used to fund them were invested in improving standards at mainstream state schools and building more of those. If you'd still rather your kids learn more about Jesus at school you are welcome to send them to a private religious school.

Like many atheists I completely do support teaching about religion, by the way - and not just in order for it to be shown up as false. I think that many great works of our culture are pretty much impossible to understand without a decent amount of bible knowledge, for example.

I believe firmly in the separation of church and state.

And I'm quite religious. I love myself some sky pixie, yes indeedy.

NotJustKangaskhan you said "I don't think it will happen though because for proper separation, you'd have to get rid of things that a lot of people like - such as town Christmas lights and nativity plays."

Not sure why you think that. Separation of church and state does not mean ban all mention of religion. It would even be okay for them to do nativity plays in school in the same way you'd do a play about - I don't know - Columbus discovering America perhaps?.

As for Christmas that isn't a Christian thing in the UK really. It was originally and still is a celebration of getting through another year alive and without losing your mind to the stress and worry. Yes the Christians moved the birthday of their guy to the same day to combine them, but that makes no difference to the rest of us.

One thing I don't think anyone has said and that is that separation could be good for religions too. The minute you remove the compulsory aspect I for one cease to be anti-religion. All I oppose is me/my family being required to get involved in someone else's beliefs. I've no problem with them holding them.

So separation would at a stroke reduce a lot of resentment against churches.

YANBU at all.
Totally fed up with the Christian brainwashing going on at our state primary school.

Good point onagar.

It would also free up loads of threads on MN to talk about something else

I think that because in countries that have separation of Church and State that I've lived in, these things would not pass. Separation of Church and State means not preferring any religion over any other or over non-religion. The State paying for Christmas lights and paying for the cost of running them? That's seen as endorsing one religion over another. All Christmas lightings are done by private institutions and individuals in the States.

And nativities would not fly either, the closest we ever got to in school - due to being in a very Christian area where it could easily be gotten away with - was Christmas songs at the Winter Concert. I don't think it ever passed anyone mind there to have a nativity in a state school. And very few schools would try Columbus discovering America plays - Columbus Day is controversial enough as it is over there without adding more fuel. You might get away with a Thanksgiving play, maybe, if you lived in an appropriate area but that's still a hotspot. Most of our plays were either full fiction dramas or educational like pretending to be bits of solar system.

Bishops get seats in House of Lords still, I think (?), so they make legislation. Faith schools/creationist Academies etc are unacceptable. All are features of the shambolic sub-democracy we live in. Agree with others who posted get rid of religion and monarchy from influence in state institutions.

Yes, they're called the Lords Spiritual:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lords#Lords_Spiritual

I'm off to join the Secular Society!

Everythinginminiature - I'm happy to say I've never lived in a part of Scotland where sectarianism is strong, nor do I know anyone that takes part in it, so I find it difficult to comment on the factors that lead to it. My gut instinct is that the separate schools can't help, but the education system here does seem to be more popular than that in England, without large numbers of parents complaining about brainwashing. I suspect that the toned down version of Christianity in the majority of state schools here pleases parents who want a level of Christian culture and values, without irritating the parents who want secular education too much. At the last nativity play I went to at school I don't think I even heard the name Jesus mentioned although I think there was a general message about being nice and kind to each other.

But jaffa I have a bit of gripe about the nativity. I'm not christian and I am british. I went to a community school in Britain - a supposedly christian country and I got the gist without being forced to be a christian.

My ds is in a very multicultural environment - supposedly - but I think he isn't really because everything is so dumbed down. I'd be happier if he'd had the nativity with the characters involved. And then proper knowlege of diwali and eid etc. .

I have an issue now that in I'm not a christian but my ds cannot learn about any faith in his school and for ds to learn about his father's faith I need to get him baptised. Something I don't get right now. Why should my ds have 'bums on seats' bloody baptism to have access to his dd's religion to get him to know about one facet of his his culture.

My dcousin's kids go to a religious school. I laugh at some of the things they learn but it's a private school and doesn't take away an opportunity for my ds to have a state education in our area. I raise an eyebrow but otherwise no issues.

But my entire point (a point that is far more important than who learns what and where) is that community is important. For me community is the area in which I live and state faith schools harm my ds's education as he can't get into any of them as they SELECTIVE ON CULTURE. So I'd like to get rid of them for this reason rather than they are teaching about 'pixies in the sky'.

Here separation of church and state sort of does mean that.

No nativities, no songs about Jesus or Santa. Now that I live in a rural environment the school does a few Christmas songs, but every other school I've worked at does not. And the only nativity plays I ever seen were at churches.

Again, I'm fine with this even though I'm pretty religious.

I'd want religions taught about, not taught as fact. People should be free to believe what they want, wear what they want, eat what they want, but it shouldn't influence state provision. Multiculturalism has the undesirable effect of maintaining the worst bits of any culture in a closed environment because each culture is represented by the most powerful people in it to the disadvantage of the others.

But then Cheerful, we all moan about religious schools being exclusive and one dimentional yet our community schools have no culture -

to me that says we live in a multicultural country where culture is denied.

What's the point of that?

NotJustKangaskhan if the only thing we'd lose would be xmas lights that is ok, but you are still talking as though xmas lights are exclusively Christian. Look up about the lights, the tree, the yule log, holly and so on and you will find they are not Christian at all.

And I said about making a play about Columbus and immediately you talk about it being in support of Columbus day. I was referring to plays for the sake of plays. You can do one about pirates without being a pirate you know and no one really believes Peter Pan is real - I hope.

In practice you probably would have to ban nativity plays at first. Not because they are evil in themselves, but you'd get teachers who are set in their ways saying "and yes children this is about how the lord jesus was born for you and the reason you have to believe and obey the church"

The responsible ones would stop pushing their religion once the law was changed, but it would take a generation to weed out the others.

"I'm always posting that school should be about facts which would include lots of information about different religions and then individual churches could teach the kids whose parents want them to go there which god to pray to."

Onagar my ds school is like this and I think it takes him away from his inate multiculturalism.
that's a pity as we have to work extra hard to make him aware of other cultures. It's fine when kids are tiny to see other kids at just kids but at some point they see difference and I'd like my ds taught positive messages about other cultures and that actually means other faiths too. Not going to happen at a faith school and not going to happen at community school.

I honestly think my ds have become decultured since starting school.

i am an Aussie. I lived in Oz for 27 years. Been in the UK for the last 10. Australia has a separation of church and state. If you want to send your kids to a religious school you will be paying for the privilege. State schools are secular. We used to have a lady come in for RE lessons in primary school. She was a Christian missionary. She was the most regular visitor. We had others. I remember an Imam came in once and we had a monk from a Buddhist temple. RE Lessons were about once a month though. No one really took them seriously. We also studied world religions as part of Social Studies in primary school and as part of Geography in High School. That was over 25 years ago though but my sisters children (15,13, and 10) have had similar experiences.

Though the government was secular our local council still did and still does a Xmas display though it was all about Santa, Rudolph et al which is fine by me. The shopping centers all did big displays too. I remember we did do a Nativity one year in school (i was the donkey), and we did Frosty the Snowman the year after.

One of the biggest Xmas events to happen is Australia is Carols by Candlelight, which is often organised by local authorities. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carols_by_Candlelight

Having a separation of church and state does not mean that local authorities cant held celebrate important events within the community, it just means that no one faith has special "endorsed" status. So councils could do an Eid celebration just as easily as they do a Xmas display or a Hanukkah one.

I'd definitely vote for the separation of church & state. I think the state should defend the rights of individuals to practice their own faith, but not actively support any one religion through tax payers money. I very strongly believe that there should be NO state funded religious schools.
To my mind, faith is a private matter. We live in a multi-cultural, multi-faith society and the Government has no business funding people's faith choices.

Giveitago - are you sure your son needs to be baptised to go to Sunday School or whatever the local equivalent is? I'm not CofE but at our church (CofS) I'd estimate that quite a lot of the kids aren't baptised. This isn't a problem at all. ALso, many of the kids are dropped off at the Sunday School and picked up afterwards by parents who do not go to church. Again, this isn't a problem. There are also holiday clubs where kids can find out about Jesus etc.

That approach sounds ace, SugarPlum. It's what I'd like here too.

Jaffa - my kid has a catholic father. No we cannot participate in anything catholic on a 'try before you by' basis.We tried many times and failed. He needs to be baptised before knowing about the faith!!!!!!!

How sad - doesn't endear me to that faith at all and with very good reason.

At this point I don't care at all - my ds can learn about his dad's faith from dad, my views from me and hinduism from my mum.

'Jaffa - my kid has a catholic father. No we cannot participate in anything catholic on a 'try before you by' basis.We tried many times and failed. He needs to be baptised before knowing about the faith!!!!!!!'

..say what?? You can go to a catholic mass, read up on Catholic doctine without being baptised. (very puzzled)