...to support the separation of church and state?

[ella1983]

Earlier today, I signed this petition calling for the church and state to be separated, as I believe that in today's Britain, it's wrong to privilege a single faith above all others.

Do you think this is a reasonable position to take?

YANB in the slightest tiniest bit U. I can't think of anything more R (reasonable).

I hope to see moves in this direction over the next few years, ideally before ds starts school, though it would seem unlikely!

I don't a shite what religous stuff they are taught at school (that's why you have significant adults in your life to hopefully give you an alternative view) - what worries me is not so called pixies in the sky by the real fact that many of us in many areas will be completely f'cked in education as there are no non selective schools in the area and I'm talking grammars (which we all have shot at applying to) but faith school.

Once in I don't care if they are taught about religions (as I can also teach my son my views) - what I really care about is that my tax goes to subsiding schools that my son cannot go to because I have decided to let him make up his own mind about his belief. This is based on the fact that I THOUGHT I lived in a multicultural society. I was wrong. I weep for this country.

Oooh NOT talking but grammars but the faith schools.

Do you feel the same way about single gender schools?

Can I ask a question ... I understand that in some communities the only primary available is a church school and I agree that is unacceptable

However ... my children went to RC schools ... if their primary and secondary had not existed then there would not be a need for either school in the local community that they were built

Instead ... in my local community there would need to be an increase in numbers at the state schools

So ... the removal of these schools would mean 2 schools closing (the land etc being sold off by the church I presume) and then the increased need for places in a large number of already full schools (not enough in any particular school to increase teacher capacity just enough to increase class numbers)

How would that work?

Talker I went to a single sex grammar. It was matched in the area with a single (male) sex grammar. It took anyone who could pass the exams. aka - it didn't take from predominantly one community or parents who passed their kids off as other religions to get it. You all had a shot if you wanted. Not everyone wanted.

Yes, you could say it's unfair. I'm not convinced about single sex myself.

However, there's a big fucking difference between dividing geographic communities along cultural (and, basically often ethnic lines) and dividing along male/famale/academic- as it's very difficult to keep male female apart but horribly easy to keep people of different backgrounds apart.

But, quite frankly I don't give a shit what religious stuff is taught or not taught as I'm fairly balanced and have my own views. What I care about is that I pay all this tax, I'm a good citizen and there is no state provision for my kid unless I can afford to move.

I'm right to feel the way I do.

On the old religious/cultural tack - I come from a very very multicultural british family ta and we are all horrified at the turn that this country is taking.

Talker - I do have issues on the contribution of the religious school v. the contribution of tax payers money to schools my son CANNOT attend due to cultural and ethnic reasons. It's bloody disgusting.

My children go to an Integrated primary school (Northern Ireland). RE is religious instruction - the children either go to RC or Protestant religion, or (as my children do) PSHE. Roman Catholic children are prepared for the sacraments.

But even though my children are withdrawn from RE, there are still prayers said, religious songs sung, and a general assumption that Christianity is The Truth.

Makes my teeth itch.

I would like to see a ban on any form of religious instruction in school. If you want your kids prepared/ taught about your religion, take them to sunday school/ madras/ whatever.

Rather than a specific RE session, I would prefer to see a wider education - learning about other cultures in their entirety, rather than just focusing on the religious aspect. It could easily be integrated into History or Geography, especially at a primary level. The ethics etc could be discussed as part of PSHE/ Citizenship or even philosophy.

I'm also pro disestablishmentarianism. Both from the point of view of removing the requirement for the act of daily worship in all schools, and also from the point of view of removing rights for CoE church funerals, baptisms etc with no sign of faith at all. I think that over time the number of church affiliated schools would drop if the funding formula changed, because although the land might have high worth the cost of upkeep for school buildings is often very very high and the church is struggling to maintain it's churches as it is (my sister was a vicar and this aspect of her job was a really significant one, and she had a fairly modern building). So I expect some sort of deal could be done.

However I wouldn't like enforced secularism either. We live in Canada where public schooling is secular and my children learn zero about anything religious and I think they miss a big chunk of culture as a result. Plus Christmas songs about Santa are dire!

Talker - I do have issues on the contribution of the religious school v. the contribution of tax payers money to schools my son CANNOT attend due to cultural and ethnic reasons. It's bloody disgusting.

I understand that but the best school in my area is a Boy Only which my daughter could not attend ... how is that acceptable

The RC school she attended is undersubscribed and takes a significant number of students that do not come from a faith background ... I appreciate that it is not the same in all areas

But it comes back to my question ... in your context ... why do you want your son to attend that school ... my children had to travel a distance to attend the church school ... they would have gone to a local school if they were not RC ... I cannot imagine why I would have wanted them to attend the school in question if the faith element had not been important

++

The non-faith children who did attend were local but there were not enough of them to need a school in the area ... removal of the RC school would have meant they had to travel ... how would that be better?

Having lived in places with separation of church and state, I prefer it not only for the issues of government as described, but I think (just from my observations) it encourages TV and businesses to do more work for a wider range of communities.

I don't think it will happen though because for proper separation, you'd have to get rid of things that a lot of people like - such as town Christmas lights and nativity plays.

'I understand that but the best school in my area is a Boy Only which my daughter could not attend ... how is that acceptable'.

It's not but understand this - there is NO SCHOOL - not good not bad - just zero for my child.

So, how is that acceptable.

I believe in community and to me that means the area in which I live. I couldn't give a shit if they are teaching kids about jesus or the big bang.

Why are we dividing our communities. I'm very aware that in about 10 years time ds will not recognise his current school friends - as they'll all be shunted off into their grammars and faith schools. We lots a couple of kids last term due to the school situation - they went abroad for a proper education and I don't blame them.

'

Lost not lots!

*It's not but understand this - there is NO SCHOOL - not good not bad - just zero for my child.

So, how is that acceptable.*

It is not, not at all

Well, exactly.

I don't have an issue if you want to send you kid to catholic school (and I'm glad and not resentful that you are happy with there education). It might be because of your faith or because you think it's the best education there is. Fine.

But all kids deserve good chances. And it seems to me that we are being increasingly divided and that kids who's parents have decided their kids have no faith or decided (like us due to our multi country/faith family) to do the typical british thing of letting our kids decide when they are ready, we are being pushed out of the educational system - yet we are also constantly told how important multiculturalism is. We're being had and paying through the nose for it.

I'm not against religion in the slightest (I'm not athiest) and I think the athiest voice concentrates way too much on their view that anyone who isn't athiest is away with fairies and they take pleasure in telling those who have faith how stupid they are. However, in my view this takes away from the main point that there are areas in this countries that you have to be divided and subscribe to something to get in to a state school and that is daft. The athiest way of sneerings just detracts from this. Who cares someone's belief - we just need to ensure that our kids are properly and appropriately educated. I'm not a fan of faith schools but that's not my truck - I just want my ds to have an education in my geographical area.

Not too much to ask surely?

NacMacFeegle makes a very good point:
"Rather than a specific RE session, I would prefer to see a wider education - learning about other cultures in their entirety, rather than just focusing on the religious aspect. It could easily be integrated into History or Geography, especially at a primary level. The ethics etc could be discussed as part of PSHE/ Citizenship or even philosophy."
If children are taught about "other religions" without this wider context, there is the risk that other cultures will be seen exclusively in terms of their religion. Plus this approach assumes that religion is the primary factor in the identify of a community or an individual: which it is to some people, but not to all of us.

O for an edit function! Sorry, by "this approach..." I meant "teaching about religion in isolation assumes (better: implies) that religion is the primary factor in the identity of a community or an individual."

I always suggest that people join the secular society and press for separation if they don't like religious worship in school. I doubt whether many do much more than moan, so well done.

Exotic - what do you mean? Are there two different arguments here ie one that argues against relgious instruction in schools and one that just wants non selective education in their area?

About the moaning - what you mean?

Every so often a thread starts with someone moaning because they thought that if their DC was not at a faith school they were at a secular school. There are no secular schools in England. Every state school has to have a daily act of worship-broadly Christian. It will remain the same until you get disestablishmentarianism.

Oh dunno about that exotic - my ds is at a very secular school.

I don't give a shit - but what do you mean about people moaning about religion in schools? What's the issue?

We have separation of church and state in Scotland in that the Queen is not the head of the Church of Scotland. Most schools, apart from a minority of Catholic ones, are nominally protestant. They are all state schools and so there are none of the entry requirements that Church of England schools have. There is not an act of daily worship in most protestant schools, although there does tend to be a religious assembly once or twice a term. Kids do learn some religious type songs to sing at those assemblies. Most, but not all, schools and nurseries will have nativity plays. I've never had any contact with a catholic school and so don't know about the entry requirements or amount of daily worship in those schools. Overall, the system here seems to work quite well and most people seem happy with it.

They don't want their DC worshipping God. I think that you will find that there is some religion, they are breaking the law if they don't have a daily actof worship. Secondary schools seem to get around it more than primary. I will be surprised if the don't hold assembly.

No - honestly - my ds last year had a nativity that managed to avoid any of the names of the people in the nativity - he had no idea it was about any sort sort of deity. Similarly, being a community school their idea of doing diwali was getting kids to wear hats and dance (according to ds).

I'd personally prefer it if they had a bit more of a religious education in terms of their multiculturalism. My ds has learnt zero in terms of religion and because he's learnt zero religion my view is that he's not had any multicultural instruction. As we all know, most people view culture in terms of religious background.

That seems a very narrow view of culture. I've always thought that RS should be a separate subject (at secondary) because I think the ethical stuff is interesting and useful, but perhaps NacMacFeegle is right. Philosophy/Ethics plus a broader social studies approach might give people a better sense of context.

Giveitago one of the problems with community schools is that it is very difficult for a parent to know what sort of approach the school will take to Christianity. The school my children went to originally had a lot of input from one of the local priests, visits to the church, regular assemblies etc. Then the head changed and the relationship ended and the level of religious input dropped to about zero (which relieved us to be honest as although I'm very happy for my children to know about faith I don't want them to be told religious stuff as truth at school).