internet troll jailed - a bit ott?

[netherlee]

Troll jailed

OK this man is depraved and he deserved to be punished, but AIBU to think prison is a bit far? Then again, MN trolls take note. There are consequences if you cross the line.

I know this is barely relevant but I hadn't heard about Charlie Gilmour and his name rang a bell so I googled and he was jailed for 16m, but not just for swinging on a flag! He also jumped on the bonnet of a car in Prince Charles' convoy and hurled a rubbish bin at it, and smashed a window, all while out of his head on drugs and alcohol. So I just wanted to say that while the rest of Kelly's post was great, that one bit wasn't accurate and perhaps shouldn't have been included. Still not as bad a child porn or causing bodily harm to a toddler though.

oh yes, quite agree. that is a difficulty, and a common one.

maybe he should ahve been ordered by the court to attend social rehabilitation, in much the way that drunk drivers have to attend alcohol awareness courses, or safer driving courses etc?

I believe though if they used the AS for his defence then the degree of that and its effect on his behaviour should have been used when deciding sentencing.

Perhaps that is the case with this one. Perhaps not, nobody knows the minutae of the story.

It's not uncommon for people with mental health issues of many different kinds for them to self medicate with alcohol. When people with AS reach adulthood there is very little the family can do without the person's co-operation in all honesty.

A friend of mine has a son who is severely mentally unwell but he can't even be told if he is not taking his medication, even though my friend has to do all of the clear up after a meltdown and is the next of kin.

I'm not sure the family would be relieved though Wholly, there are so many things that a person with AS couldn't cope with, whle they are all different I'd imagine the noise, being confined, having communication difficulties, unable to make friendships easily, not coping with any change at all, so changing all routines, living environments etc would probably be very traumatic.

I think like others there should be answer to this that doesn't involve jail, even sectioning him would be better to get him the help he clearly needs.

I agree with you that ideally he would have had that kind of help when he was first cautioned. Having him present in the room whilst a course is going on doesn't mean he would take the information in though. Most adults are pretty set in terms of behaviour and if they're not willing to learn they won't. Hell, most teenagers are like that. Add heavy drinking into the mix and it lowers the chances of getting through even more. Maybe the answer is to get the help in at a much youngerage. How easy is it to get through to a NT 25 year old heavy drinking man who thinks he's right? I can't imagine that his having Aspergers would help the situation.

This man deserved to go to jail. The way he behaved was cruel, heartless and very wrong.
Just because he has AS might mean he initially didn't realise the consequence of his behaviour, but the negative responses he received, would have made him question his behaviour. A person with AS uses other peoples responses as a guide, to interpret the world around them.
My Dd has AS, over the years she has demonstrated many times totally inappropriate responses to various situations. She takes her cue from others or I act as interpreter. She takes on board what is being said in a clinical and detached way, but she learns from her mistake for the next time she encounters the same situation. That is the problem with AS, they rely on guidance to help with social situations they don't fully understand. This man I feel, knew exactly what he was doing. He had been previously warned, relatives had got in touch with him to tell him of the hurt and distress he was causing. This isn't because he has AS, but because he is a nasty person.

yes, a course would be hopeless, was just likening it to other situations where the court orders osmehting other than a jail term.

there are ways to deal with non-compliance (and I don;t mean that ot sound as horribly Victorian as it does!). an intensive course, 1:1 with behaviouralists and counselling services would have more chance of success. but of course, there will always have to be some kind of consent and willingness to participate.

yes, working through these issues when younger is a better solution. it doens't happen. one look at the SN boards, with so many similar posts about how dc are not getting their needs met - both educationally and socially/emotionally - tells a grim story.

TBH if his AS meant that he was unable to realise what he was doing was wrong, even after being cautioned for it previously, then he really shouldn't have been able to continue without supervision, and yes in that case prison would be inappropriate.

Does he have AS Maryz?

If he does I think it puts a different slant on things. Its still wrong but if he does have AS he wouldnt have proper idea of how much anguish it would cause. I know its not as simple as 'he doesnt know what he was doing' though. He did and he knew it was wrong. But would he be able to feel how wrong it was?

BUT then pyschopaths dont have the same understanding of what they do and they get banged up for their crimes.

And a lot of teenagers have a phase of empathy atrophy and can do horrible things.

What he did was a terrible thing. He should be punished and he only got 18 days.

Its a new type of crime so we dont really have much to compare it with. But if a person kept turning up to a grave site and leaving nasty comments or putting letters through a bereaved person's letter box they would have to be punished.

Well apparently his solicitor didn't 'use' his AS in mitigation.

Father of one of the dead teenagers being inverviewed on Jeremy Vine now.

woudl they have to be punished, MrsdeVere, or should they be re-educated?

I think the concept of punishing someone who has not even fully understood the crime is a bit ott. but agree that they need ot be stopped.

Going back to what Troisgarcons said early on in this thread, apparently his father had made his name doing parodies and had set up a fake twitter acount taking the mick out of Cheryl Cole - if his father's sense of humour was mostly based around taking the piss out of other people, then it would have skewed this man's attitude to what was acceptable as well and he could have just thought he was being funny in the same way that his Dad was.

Still doesn't excuse the response when one of the families contacted him to tell him he was hurting them though - that's what makes me think he is just nasty. But again (and I admit I'm doing a bit of Devil's advocacy here) perhaps he asked his Dad's opinion and his Dad said "nah they just can't take a joke son, you carry on". OBVIOUSLY I have no way on earth of knowing whether or not that might even have been a possibility - but it might have been this man's "normal".

MrsDV - 18 weeks, not days.

It would depend on what we mean by 'not understand' IYSWIM.

If we take a person with SLDs we could assume that they did not understand that throwing a brick at someone was wrong and it would be wrong to punish them even if they killed that person.

But if we have someone with HFAS who knows that to throw a brick at someone wrong and it could kill them but does not know how that person will feel or how their family will be affected by it - what do we do then?

And how do you educate someone with AS about other people's feelings? You can tell them the rules and explain it but you cant make them feel it.

I dont know much about this man in this case as I have deliberatly avoided reading about it. Its a subject I find difficult. It is like a kick in the head when someone does what he did.

I dont actually think many people would fully understand the impact it has on families tbh.

But do those thugs who bully disabled people really understand what they are doing? Do they really think that the person might kill themselves because of it? If they do they must be evil. I get the impression that most of them are stupid and ignorant and dont have a clue what they are doing or even why.

Oh ok - like I said, have been avoiding it a bit.

People with autism or AS need boundaries. Essentially what he did was sent extreme hate mail.

If he has no empathy he needs to know that if he does X then negative consequence Y will happen. In special schools children with autism/ AS certainly get punished if they break the rules. A child with a low IQ learns that if he bites a TA he is punished. It does not matter that the did not realise the TA has nerve endings and that being bitten hurts. Eventually he learns to connect the punishment to crime, but may need social stories. He learns it is a bad idea to bite a TA, even if he does not care about causing pain.

I think the jail term will make him sit up and realise he cannot behave like this. It is the right decision.

Its not the first time

"Duffy had been cautioned for a similar offence in 2009 and Whiteford said he lived an isolated life and had himself been bullied at school and work."

reallytired,

punishment has to fit the crime. a jail sentence is not linked to this young man's behaviour. An internet ban for a period of time is.

So Natasha McBryde was driven to suicide at 15 by cyber bullying.

Does anyone know if those bullies faced criminal sanctions?

starlight,
You cannot make asusmptions about him just because he has aspergers. Maybe he has mental health issues, but his defense did not use that. Plenty of people without aspergers have mental health issues, but no-one makes assumptions that they must have these issues, and must therefore have not received support.Why behave differently towards people who have aspergers? Nothing in the information available made it appear he had been failed by social services, and had mental health issues, so why assume it simply because he has aspergers. That is just as bad as assuming someone must be stupid because they have aspergers.
And if he had harressed a living person (which as he harressed the families he did) he would also have got jailtime. Othe rpeople have received sentances for things they have said online. People seem to think that if they do something online it is a free for all and they cannot be punished. This is not the case.

"In special schools children with autism/ AS certainly get punished if they break the rules."

I do not agree with that sentence. dd1 is not punished when she "breaks rules". she is corrected, yes. the correct behaviour/language is modelled for her, and she is encouraged to use that. but she is not punished.

punishment alone does not work. she needs ot know what the right thing to do is. what happens when this punishment doe snot work? what next?

people with ASD are not able to extrapolate form their situaiton they cannot leanr by example, they need ot be explicitly taught. generalising a behavior from one situation to another can be difficult. these are skills that can be taught, but they are unlikely to develop on their own.

so, let's say he does his time in jail, comes out, has not leanrt anyhitng except that he will spend time in jail (which might actually be a preferred place for him - lots of routine, predictability, and possibly getting away from difficulties in his home life, like loneliness) if he does htis again. he has not (necessarily - am aware I am specualting) learned why what he did was worng, or how to interact appropriately. so he does it again - because the need for the attention is greater than the deterrent. what happens next? more jail? a harsher sentence? where he will still not magically understand why what he did was wrong.

and on it goes. eventually a whole life wasted, through lack of understanding and education.

is this what we should be aiming for as a society?

and totally agree with lenin too. where is the shock and horror (in society at large) that children can be bullied ot the point they commit suicide. where are the 'punishments' (or re-education/rehabilitation) for those bullies?

If not then they certainly should have done. I believe other people also posted hateful messages after Duffy put his online, so they should now too be facing sentences.

Worth noting that there was nearly another death as a result of this case too - one teenager attempted suicide by overdose when she was wrongly accused of being the author of some of the messages.

I don't think you should behave differently to people who have aspergers. I think you should have a legal system that takes disability and intention into account.

I have been through the legal system myself wrt to disability issues and I can tell you for sure that there is woeful discrimination within it. I would not trust a judge to be able to take it into account and I would not trust many lawyers to understand it enough to be able to use it appropriately in a defense.