AIBU to be pissed off with 'voluntary contributions' for school trips?

[Chundle]

dd came home today with school trip form. It costs £19. They won't be able to go if enough people don't pay this voluntary contribution but those that don't pay still get to go blah blah blah. I'm totally not a snob- I live in a council house so don't have a ton of money but I always pay for my kids to go on trips yet it seems to me there's always a group of parents standing there laughing there tits off that they didn't have to cough off!
When I was a kid if you didn't pay you stayed at school and had a fun time anyway that was that and what's wrong with that???
I had to miss out on school trips as a kid and wasn't overly bothered.
My tin hats on I'm ready for a bashing

Sorry pointy, I really didn't mean to be patronising. I had read your 'that is not the case in Scotland' as a question about why it wasn't the case in Scotland, the answer being devolution of education. That obviously wasn't what you meant, apologies.

To reply to the 'why do they [schools) put on trips' I can only describe my own experience. I teach in a small rural school, with a substantial minority of children with very very little life experience who have never been more than a few miles from the village, never seen the sea, never been to the nearest city 10 miles away etc. The National Curriculum suggests that we teach these children things like the Tudors or Victorians or about coasts. Yes, we can do a lot with multimedia information sources, artefact loan etc but at the end of the day as educators we want the children to have some 'actual experiences' of the type only we as schools are ever likely to deliver - to visit a castle, a Tudor house, a place of worship for another religion, a museum recreating the Victorian period etc. As we are rural, none of those things are on our doorstep, so we have trips, and trips mean coaches which are expensive.

Also with respect to swimming - again, as we are rural, swimming means a coach journey. Money to deliver swimming IS in the school budget - but the money for the coach isn't. Is it right to use school or PTA money to pay for the coach (we have an active PTA, but again the ability of parents and community to give via that route is relatively limited especially in the current economic climate) for the 2 classes who go swimming? Or for the playground which will benefit everyone - and it IS an either/or?

Yes the Y6 trip was indeed an educational one - they did lessons, outdoor pursuits and purely social outings like evening bowling at a centre which becomes a PGL centre during the holidays, much like the school residentials our children in Belgium do now which are an obligatory and integral part of the curriculum and for which we pay a lot for (I'm far from complaining there, I think these trips are wonderful experiences for our children and count our children very fortunate to live in a country where such trips are still normal and where nearly all parents pay). Anyway, the UK school did give the right to pupils to opt out of it in certain circumstances, not connected at all with the parents' ability to contribute to the cost, that year every child chose to go, previously children not going would stay behind at school that week in Yr5. The Parents' Association was at the time very loosely run, head was able to draw from the bank account and do what he wanted with the money, parents had no idea this money was used in this way, hubby discovered the truth when he took over as head of governors, head is no longer in state education. It was a gross misuse of hard-earned money, when no parents got the right to say what they wanted the money spent on. I do hope the school now has a more accountable parents' association.

natation - I doubt that you had total knowledge of the financial commitments of every family who didnt contribute to the trip

I'm just relieved that we live in a 'poor' area...if we lived in a nicer are my DC would definitely end up being the ones everyone slagged off moaned about. My DC school do one trip a year that they charge for, the most it has ever been is £12.50 for one trip ( and they make the other school years trips cheaper so parents don't pay that much for each child). The trips are in the summer term and we are advised of the trip and amount just after Feb half term, to allow the chance to pay in instalments.

I think it's very sad that schools put pressure on parents to fund trip they may not be able to afford...being on FSM or not is nowhere near the most reliable indicator of how capable a family is of affording trips.

no problem merci ... sorry that I was not clear

We do have some trips that take place in term time (or part term part hol) that are not essential to the curriculum but offer something extra ... eg History students can go to visit war cemeteries but they do not need to

Any student that wants to go but cannot afford it will be paid for ... but they do have to apply for that (and as I said ime they usually want to make a contribution or pay over time but that is not essential)

If no slip is returned (either with deposit or request for support) then they do not go ... they can still complete their History GCSE so no problem

Note ... we do not means test the requests for support we accept that if someone has asked then they need the support

Oh and I have never heard of anyone boasting in the playground about deliberately not paying for specific trips, plenty of grumbles generally about costs but that's as much as I have ever heard. In the experience at our children's UK school, it was a complete cross-section of parents who did not pay, you could not "box" them as rich or poor, with the exception of 2 who were on full benefits yet they were the minority of non-payers.One last point, the cost of £250 had already been inflated to take into account the non-payers, yet the school still had a shortfall of approx £2000. It was the case of the minority of parents (around 35% of class) spoiling it for the majority, leaving it to the hundreds of other generous contributors from the Summer fete to unwittingly pay for that minority of parents.

The residential trips in yrs 5 and 6 are presented to the children at our school as an expected participation. Not going on them would be extremely divisive.

They are nice but not essential to the curriculum. I think they do put some parents (us included) under un-necessary pressure and worry.

We just afford them, but in reality how can you say no without making your dc stand out?

The thought of having to go in and speak to the head to make a case for a reduction is also somewhat uncomfortable and humiliating. I think there is an assumption that you can easily afford something just because you haven't been in and told them otherwise.

thanks for clarifying, talker

BendyBob

I think there is a big difference in Primary and Secondary

I agree that Y5/6 residential trips are almost compulsory and, tbh, I think the money for them should be raised through events rather than any parent having to pay

Oh absolutely re there being a difference in secondary school. Older dd in secondary school has and will be offered some very expensive trips, but they often seem to take place in the holidays are low key and there has been no pressure so far to do them.

Total opposite expectation in junior school.

yes that was what happened in my dd's year for school journey and we had to have a bring and buy. It was such a difficult school yeargroup and again a minority of parents who wouldn't pay.

What about swiimming lessons?They are part of the national curriculum, so why the hell should i pay for them.they are not an 'extra'

..and school trips are always to a place all the kids have been to a squillion times before.Why should i pay just because I can afford to? School should maybe ask parents if they Will pay BEFORE organising trip?
DS1's secondary school organised a trip to hear GCSE poets reading their poems at a cost of about £30 per child I think.DS had absolutely zero interest in going and the English teacher eventually told the kids who hadn't paid if they didn't pay they would be put in detention.I told the Hof D and he supported the teacher!! Until i pointed out that demanding money with menaces was a criminal offence!!

I have just made arrangements with my DS1's school to pay £2.50 a week for his Year 6 residential trip - which will cost £250+. DS1 has just started Y5. So I am giving myself 2 years to try to cover the cost of this. The reason they agreed to this is because I asked if there was any help likely to be available for me as I will be WORSE off than if I was on benefits. The school said no, why don't you pay £5 a week through Y6. I then asked to start paying NOW.

Those who have a genuine reason for being unable to find the money in one go, like me, usually try to make advance arrangements with the school. I will be paying the whole lot. It's just it will take me two years to do, and as soon as DS1 has gone, I will need to start paying for DS2's trip. (They are two school years apart). For the last 3 years, the ENTIRE year has gone. So if I don't pay, DS1 will be the ONLY child that doesn't go. How unfair? Yet I have to take two years to pay for it, and the school won't help me.

madamarcati, your attitude is exactly the attitude our UK school encountered when organising the the Yr6 residential, and the attitude many UK schools are now facing when trying to organise trips and school swimming and other activities which enable the children to venture outside their school buildings in order to enhance their education and learning. You would not last 5 minutes in Belgium - where the children are indeed left behind on school trips when parents do not pay without justification - yes there is a system for those who cannot afford to pay and they are not excluded. And what Loudlass writes about those having genuine difficulty paying approaching the school to ask for financial assistance / special payment arrangements, well those who can and won't pay just stay silent, on the experience of our children's UK primary.

Loudlass My goodness I completely sympathise. If someone requires two years to pay for a school trip, that essentially has been forced upon them with little choice about it, then they jolly well deserve some help imo.

I feel quite angry for you. What a lot of un-necessary worry to be put under.

School trips (especially expensive residential ones) are all very well, but financially speaking, schools need to start living in the real world along with the rest of us.

Madammarcarti
"and school trips are always to a place all the kids have been to a squillion times before."

Are you sure? All the kids? When we took 2 year groups to a museum some distance away, there were a few children who had been there before. I discussed this with these children's parents, and their response was 'Yes. we've been there before BUT you will have guides and experiences that the general public won't have AND we know that most of the children won't have been so we fully support the school in taking the children there'. They could see the 'common good' argument - that the many who hadn't been shouldn't be deprived of an experience just because a few had had it already - very clearly.

On swimming, I made the point before - there is money per child in the budget to take children swimming but not for the coach. Also, the money in the budget is per child - fine if like my children's school you take 2 full classes of 60 to a pool that they can walk to, but in a small school we only take 30-40 kids even though the cost of the pool is the same, AND have to take a coach every week. Even though my children's school hires 3 fully-qualified swimming teachers whereas we use 1 swimming teacher from the pool, and 2 members of staff who have received a couple of days of training in swimming, there is still a financial gap between the two situations.

Sorry, should have read '2 full classes = 60 children', not '2 full classes of 60'!

The head teacher of my DS's old school once told me that it's not the least well off that don't pay, it's the parents who believe that State education should be free and are making a political statement.

I always paid for the trips but after having 3 kids and when they got into Y5 I didn't always pay for the swimming with my 3rd child as I felt it should have been funded by the school as it was part of the curriculum.

We did not have alot of money but did not qualify for any benefits. I think what is frustrating is that it is not always the people on benefits who are hard up, sometimes it is the people with mortgages who have alot of outgoings but this is never addressed.

I remember the frustration of when my dd learnt the flute. We could not afford a flute but luckily a relative gave us one. I don't think we could even hire one from the borough as it was for people on benefits. I remember asking that if the people on benefits were not hiring or using the music service, then could we but no not allowed to.

In the end my dd didn't get chosen so I paid for private lessons but she has reached grade 7 so their loss.

saladfingers-' As a teacher, when costing a trip the general rule of thumb is that you divide cost of entrance fees and coach between 28 children(of a class of 30) incorporating possibility that 2 children can't pay'

well I think you are breaking the law then It is quite clear that schools cannot price trips to include an element for 'non-payers'

You pay for the coach/entrance fees for the teachers and parent helpers too...or should i say you let the other parents pay your share.

I'm following school policy

Breaking the law???you're having a laugh

In my DS sons school we have parents who openly state in the playground that the letter says "voluntary and I ain't paying" which is quite sad and annoying for us parents who do try and pay and one parent who tried to get the voluntary sum together (in very short notice) and could only manage (£15 out of the £20) had a phone call from the schoo, to point out she hadn't paid the full £20 and when she said well it is voluntary she was told 'yes but as you have paid some of it we expect you to pay the full amount' and while she was telling us this one lovely mum said 'well I ain't paying, don't see why I should, there are richer parents than me they can pay" after she said this she got out her iPhone from her Ted Baker bag !!! It is little wonder people get worked up about it to be honest.

DD's school doesn't say anything about voluntary contributions- just states the price of the trip. Is that allowed? They also charge for tickets to the Christmas and summer shows. Think we're all made of money.