to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

Will this eviction date of the 19th mean anything new to the eviction date of the 31st August? Or is this an absolutely final final date?

I'm not aware of a large Jewish group, in the UK, taking possession of land and forming a large settlement contrary to law (I know it's happened in the Occupied Territories).

On the contrary, in the area of London I used to live, there were probably a quarter of the houses with Jewish families in them (because there were two synagogues in walking distance). However the families did the same sort of jobs, wore the same sort of clothes, sent their children to the same sort of schools, as the other residents. Can you tell me more about the historical parallels you see wrt Jewish and Traveller integration?

Of course the travellers that do own houses, could always live in them, because some of the travellers involved in the dalefarm dispute own their own houses. Fact.

Math, you seem to be missing a massive point or 2. One is, they are acting illegally. Would you really think it ok for the law to only apply to certain sections of society? Seriously?

Secondly, they don't want to integrate with us. At all. You forget that quite a few of us on this thread have first hand experience of living closely to them.

I politely suggest that you take a couple of weeks off and go and live at Crays Hill before the evictions. See what it's really like when you take off those rose coloured glasses.

I'm a bit stunned, with the arrival of the 'parallel'. And not in a good way. I'm not sure that any good can come of this now.

What parallel LineRunner?

Is anyone here seriously trying to tell me Jews have been welcomes with open arms in Europe and Eurasia, and allowed to follow any trade, to farm, own land, marry the locals, vote, participate in politics everywhere they went and never once got confined to ghettoes, expelled from kingdoms or principalities, restricted from businesses or trades or land ownership? I have seen some quare tying up in knots of people on this thread, but this beats all.

In Britain, which expelled Jews in 1290, Jews were granted emancipation at the same time as Catholics were under the Catholic Emancipation Act, in 1829. They had never been officially allowed back but a small community was identified in London during the 17th C. Daniel O'Connell, Irish MP and leader of the fight for Emancipation, insisted that the prescribed dress for Jews be abolished, in 1846. After that, Jews began to feel a bit more welcome in Britain. Catholics began to feel more at home in Britain (and Ireland) after 1829.

I would like to make it clear that I do not intend to draw any conclusion along the lines of the parallel that LineRunner has suggested.

I would also like to point out that I did not bring up the 'parallel'.

A freudian slip perhaps on the part of the poster who introduced it to the conversation?

We are now living in the 21st century math. If you want to quote from history, we could go back as far as the Romans and their empirical exploits over here.

My horrendous direct experience of the travellers has been deleted.
The BBC however were not so churlish and covered "our" eviction on Newsnight; headlines, 3 or 4 nights running. Ignited caravans, exploding gas cylinders and riot police.
What they recorded (apparently) is the "normal" reaction of people who have exhausted the legal process of a rejected retrospective planning application .

"Catholics began to feel more at home in Britain (and Ireland) after 1829."

Really ?

Would that be after the Famine and the Corn Laws or before ?

SarahStratton -- the laws wrt pp are applied unevenly and haphazardly all over Britain, with retrospective pp, temporary pp and many other devices being used as different circumstances seemed to demand. The law is all over the place when it comes to pp.

LAs are allowed a huge amount of latitude even as to the enforcement of supposedly clearcut cases where eviction would seem the next logical step (see my link posted earlier though it is a bit long).

I don't actually blame them for not wanting to live near the sort of people who have castigated them so vehemently on this thread. But I have lived near Travellers growing up and I have formed my own opinion of them (which is not rosy by any means, see some of my posts) - above all I have learned that they are individuals and cannot all be painted with the same brush.

I'm a great believer in personal freedom Math; but when exerting same; I don't deprive others.

That is the defining virtue in my mind.
I have encountered many races, sub-cultures etc. in my time; but I have never been so diminished in terms of personal freedoms and choices as I was, when travellers took over my community.

Just answering the OP's question really. The law has not granted them planning pernission. As usual, solicitors etc have dragged out their cases over a 10 year period making the eviction seem harsher than it would have been 10 years ago. That's not Basildon's councils fault, they have I understand offered to re house them. I wouldn't get planning permission on my mums field and I wouldn't get a council house within 6 miles of her house either if I needed it so I don't see why travellers should be the exception rather than the rule.

You are joking aren't you ?

No.

math "I think historically speaking the experience of the Jewish community in trying to integrate or live peacefully with non-Jewish populations completely bears out my argument wrt Traveller integration"

Well I wonder what she meant then?

Acculturation is fascinating because it's complicated.

What's that silly game with matchsticks when the idea is not to be left with the last one?

I'm just thinking that somebody is going to do the final post on this thread before it overloads and disappears into the far blue yonder!

Pick up sticks?

Actually, I think it's incredibly insulting to even consider comparing the eviction of a bunch of criminals from an illegal site with the Jewish pogroms, the Holocaust etc.

Break the law, law comes down on you. That's the way all societies work.

Pigletjohn. I haven't a bloody clue.

Math. You need a decent history tutor; one that can explain rotten boroughs, the socio-economic link of landlord-tenant; and the true meaning of Emancipation. I think you're referring to the fact that Catholics in Ireland were free to buy a horse over the value of £5; practice mass etc. It was irrelevant. It certainly did not provide a window for a political voice.

SarahStratton I need a LIKE button! Totally agree with what you said. Now get on and get it over with. Engage the army if that's what it takes. Not for the use of weapons ofcourse just to assist the bailiffs and police officers. Just totally outnumber them. It's the only way,so no one gets hurt.

The treatment of Jews in Europe is an parallel that is used often when discussing the Roma people and their treatment.
The travellers are effectively our Roma. It is entirely reasonable to equate the treatment of Jews in Europe to the treatment of the Roma except that the Jewsih people were treated well after the end of the second world war and the Roma people are still treated terribly everywhere.

In as much as we say spend a few weeks living near Dale Farm to any poster who offers a differing opinion to the norm on this thread I would ask you all how much experience you really have of living with travellers.

Most people have never encountered traveller or only in circumstances that are very difficult for the travellers