to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

There's a gypsy box to tick? Is there a fairy box as well?

'Other white' would cover a multitude, as would 'D - Other'

The historical origin of the Roma/Romany/Zigane/Gypsy people is not Romania. The latest wave of emigration around Europe of Roma people comes predominantly from Romania, but this is not the whole Roma story.

Yes indeed. Part of the problem is the govt is willing to pay, in whatever form that takes, for children not actually resident in Ireland, which is ludicrous imho. It's obviously in everyone's interests to lean on the Romanian govt to do better by the Roma of Romania.

And I think if there are genuinely Irish Travellers (passport and nationality speaking) breaking the law or siphoning benefits illegally or double dipping in both Britain and Ireland, then the British government should be pushing the Irish Government to try harder to end the situation. The Irish government can't go around claiming the Travellers are Irish when it comes to refusing to grant them ethnic minority status for EU purposes and then washing their hands of them when they are causing trouble abroad.

Read that post again, Blueberties.
What I have tried to point out is that you can't say they are so different that it is impossible to live near them/they should assimilate as the Romany have done/they should be sent back to Ireland, yet deny that they are different enough to constitute a separate ethnicity. I don't agree that their different culture amounts to nothing more than a culture of criminality vs. the law abiding taxpayer culture, especially in the country that gave the world football hooliganism and more recently the spectacle of rioting and looting in many major cities.

You can pretend that a dismissive attitude towards their culture and a show of force by the bailiffs up and down the country will solve the problem if letting off steam makes you feel better, but insisting that they are a bunch of criminals who should simply disappear from the face of Britain will not actually get anyone anywhere.

my first post deleted on Mumsnet! Trying to put it in a less offensive way - in my experience, the culture by which travellers define their heritage, amounts to what people like me see as bad behaviour.

Very bad behaviour, including neglecting their children to an unbelievable degree. Despite the instances I described above of harassment from the travellers who lived around me, I also did spend a lot of time talking with the children. I did not have much choice in that Some were quite literally starving (Dad spending all benefits). This wonderfully tight knit community of theirs did not see this as a problem, and helped the parents evade social services. These children were so pathetically grateful that I gave them food that they kept trying to repay me by helping me. I've felt guilty ever since, that we moved, and abandoned them.

Once I found a little boy, about three years old, covered in blood, he'd cut himself playing with broken glass in an alley way. It wasn't a bad cut, he'd just managed to smear it all over himself so it looked awful, and I ran over to see what had happened. I told him he needed to go home to have the cut cleaned and bandaged - he said he'd already gone home to show them, and they'd told him to stay out. I went and got my first aid kit.

I really hope that travellers will stop being enabled to live with all their kin. It is not fair, when other ethnic groups simply don't have this option. I also suspect that, if they were split up, it would be harder for them to get away with anti social behaviour, and the abusive treatment of women and children. Like it or not, those things truly are a problem within that community.

Been following this thread with interest.
My own experience with travellers is limited, but was wondering what group the travellers im MBFGW are classified as?

So Math, in a nutshell you are saying that the Irish government doesn't recognise their separate ethnic status and just sees them as bog-standard Irish, yet the mainstream Irish society does not accept them because they are generally a thorn in the side of everyone they have dealings with - but they don't see themselves as bog-standard Irish. (er...bad choice of words I've just realised - pardon the pun about bogs. )

But we in the Britain do recognise their ethnic minority status so they come here for an easier ride when they want to do as they please even if it means flouting the law.

Re: Roma people, they live all across Europe, but in the greatest numbers in Romania and Hungary and Bulgaria I believe. They are a common sight in Rome, Barcelona, and most major European cities.

I think they are distinctly different to our Romany gypsies, although they may share an ancient heritage. I have had several experiences of true Roma, (and they are very easy to spot) and they have all been negative an unpleasant. They see very aggressive begging and pickpocketing as a perfectly legitimate way to 'earn' a living (that is not just my opinion, but well documented among academics who have lived with and studied them) and it is not a nice experience to be hounded menacingly in the street or at a pavement cafe, for money, by gangs of intimidating girls no more than about 16, with babies and toddlers on their hips.

I am more than happy to say out loud that if I am ever a tourist anywhere and I see a group of Roma just 'hanging around' or moving en-masse through crowded streets I grip my handbag very hard and keep my wits about me. People who made a big fuss when those Roma families were moved on from Belfast are perhaps people who have no idea about the reality of having lots of them suddenly descend on your community. It is indeed unpleasant and uncomfortable for the authorities to have to resort to a what appears to be a form of ethnic cleansing, but I am quite sure that had they behaved in an acceptable/socially responsible way their ethnicity would NEVER have been an issue.

MaryZ I agree, I think the business about the government whether Irish or British paying child benefit to children who do not reside in the country is open to fraud and does cause resentment. Who on earth came up with this idea.

Particularly when taxpayers are having their child benefit cut and there are huge spending cuts to get the deficit down.

I remember in the early 90s on the tube having young girls begging with a baby. I believe they may have been Romanian.

wholly Ghost that poor little boy. I am glad you helped the children.

Had a very intereting chat with friends about this last night. I was very surprised that our friend thought very strongly that they shouldn't be evicted. His point was that they were forced to do this as we don't provide anywhere for them to live as they want to legally.

Thoughts?!

They own houses, back in Ireland. They talked about them on BFGW. And a poster on here has confirmed that and named one of the villages. They are quite able to live there legally.

There's a debate on BBC 1 at the moment about this, apparently a large majority of them hold British passports?
I'm not defending them btw, from what I've seen I would hate to be living next door to them.
I also think the actual evictions could turn into a serious incident.
I'd worry that the type of anarchist groups that turn peaceful demonstrations into running battles will be writing the dates down in their diaries and rubbing their hands with glee.

His point was that a legal traveller site should be set up in each county, providing water/electricity (at a fee) and they could move around as they wished.

I hope they don't build one near me teacher

Does your friend have a nice big garden he could donate to the cause?

It's already known that there are groups from Europe coming over to cause as much trouble as possible challenge the evictions. I wish people would worry a bit more about the people who will be on the frontline.

I'm old enough to remember when gypsies set up an illegal camp on Hampstead Heath (where Vanessa Redgrave is from) - would have been the mid 1980s i think.

Don't recall too many of the local luvvies rushing to embrace them then. in fact, as I recall, they were moved off in record time.

No, I agree Maryz, the evictions have to go ahead.
And like Sarah, I would be concerned for the local people as well.
I really can't see how they could possibly pass peacefully.