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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To expect to be allocated airline seats next to my kids?

751 replies

correllia · 30/08/2011 13:24

My partner and I are off on holiday to menorca at the end of September with Monarch. They have emailed us to tell us we can check in online now, which saves time at the airport.

So far so good - but to complete the process I have to prebook my seats at the cost of £5 per seat per flight. We are on a tight budget and deliberately haven't bought the seats in advance to save the pennies.

Kiddies are 2 and 4, whilst I don't mind our sitting 2 and 2 apart from each other but looking at the seat plan even this option is fast disappearing! Can the airline force such young children to sit next to strangers?

Am I unreasonable to demand that we sit with them?

PS this is my first post, so please be genttle :-)

OP posts:
Fontsnob · 31/08/2011 17:52

Sorry, allocate the seats, not book them.

Fontsnob · 31/08/2011 17:53

So grovel they should put their prices up and stop charging people by stealth in an unfair way. They should be honest with the fairs.

donthateme · 31/08/2011 17:58

My advice to anyone travelling would be:
Don't use budget airlines!
If you do, don't bother with surcharges. The airline will sit your child near an adult who can assist if they are an age which necessitates that. End of. If you cant cope without being guaranteed you will sat together as a family, or you have an older child who for some reason will get upset at not being near (but does not need physical assistance) then pay up and travel with an airline which will accommodate your wishes.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for - we all know that. The airline will comply with what they have to- but budget airlines are highly unlikely to care about anything above and beyond their health and safey obligations. Therefore if you want more, you have to pay for it - not expect other passengers to provide it for you out of the goodness of their hearts. They are probably having an equally miserable experience flying on some crappy cheapskate airline anyway.

clam · 31/08/2011 17:58

I wonder what the % is of people who pay for a preferred seat. Surely there must be enough people on the plane who have not paid who could be asked to swap seats.

MJHASLEFTTHEBUILDING · 31/08/2011 17:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

WreckaJones · 31/08/2011 18:20

"'the children next to an adult who can assist them if necessary" - so the airline is not saying that the adjacent stranger must help them with the oxygen masks during turbulence or decompression? Neither is the airline saying that the adjacent stranger might help the child? The airline is saying the adjacent stranger can (as in is able to or permitted to) assist the child but has no actual responsibility to? So how is that complying with the CAA Guidelines? If the adjacent stranger is physically able to assist the child but refuses to or forgets or is panicking too much to remember there's a child that is not theirs sitting next to them waiting for oxygen how has the airline complied with the CAA Guidelines?

"Additionally, children and infants should be seated where they can be adequately supervised by an accompanying adult in the event of turbulence or a decompression in the cabin."

Unless the airline seats the OP's children near an adult they are travelling with (e.g. an accompanying adult - note NOT a random stranger who has agreed or not, whether in writing or not, to take on responsibilities of accompanying adult) then they are not complying with CAA guidelines.

I can tell you quite clearly, if a child sustained a serious injury because it was not strapped in/had not had oxygen mask during turbulence or decompression and the parent/Accomp.Adult said but we couldn't help the child, the airline said the stranger next to the child would help....nah. Court ain't buying that (am trying to get into the swing of things along with the GEDDIT?! I can't necksnake - old whiplash injury - sorry) Seriously. You think a court is going to say, well quite clearly the cabin crew thought this young man/old woman next to them was responsible for the safety of the 2 year old child next to them, despite being unrelated and never having met before being on this flight together, and therefore the airline has successfully passed its duty onto that random passenger - chuck those CAA Guidelines on the bonfire will you - airline, you have acted completely in line with the guidelines (and we are also going to ignore any general tortious duty of care you have too) and there is nowt we can do. Sorry parents/Accom. Adults - you can only expect the airline to follow CAA once you have handed over a fiver for each of your seats.

Just not going to happen. And the airline would know that. But they can extract at least a tenner from the parents of pre-schoolers who are either not lawyers and/or don't want the effort/inconvenience of a few quiet words, and so they will.

WreckaJones · 31/08/2011 18:26

ps donthateme have replied to you on another thread - don't want you to think I am following you round MN but that particular board is my what I do for a living hence me lurking on there!

donthateme · 31/08/2011 18:49

But as you say, the airline have a duty to comply with the regulations anyway, regardless of whether seat surcharges have been paid for. They can also instruct passengers to move in order to fulfil their obligations. Therefore I don't understand your point. The airline will make a judgement call on whether their seating arrangements Are complying. Therefore, any situation where a PASSENGER is asking other people to move, or asking other passengers to agree to certain stipulations is simply not relevant. Why would they need to? It is the Airlines job to do that. This thread is littered with people saying 'i'd give the passenger what for!' , 'i'd tell them to move' or 'i'd make sure they had a hellish journey next to my kid'! That is what the debate has been about. And as you now agree, it's irrelevant because the airline will comply with what it has to. Anything else is just what the parent might want - and that's a different issue. And incidentally there is no guarantee that in an emergency the parent wont panic and possibly not fit their childs oxygen mask correctly, or may forget to fit theirs first, or may be slower than a 'stranger' would be. You could argue that a parent in charge of a 4 yr old and a newborn might be less effective in a crisis than if the 4 yr old was sat elsewhere. Thats why the airline cannot and will not guarantee the DETAIL of how anyone one will respond in a crisis- they simply comply with the requirement to make sure there are people who potentially can assist. A parent who is highly anxious and might pass out in a crisis would not be held liable for failing to assist their child- and neither would a stranger.

Inertia · 31/08/2011 19:11

The bottom line is that the airline (effectively, check-in / cabin crew) is responsible for ensuring the safety of everyone on the aircraft. So they have to ensure that all passengers are as safe as possible; specifically they must ensure that small children sit close to an adjacent accompanying adult. So it's the duty of the staff to move people where necessary- and no, as a parent you don't have the right to order other passengers about. But you do have a responsibility to point out the safety implications of your toddler being unsupervised so the crew can make the situation safe.

It's not an issue of whose rights trump whose - from my understanding, nobody has many rights on a plane anyway. And it isn't an issue of setting your feral children on upstanding pre-booking pillars of the community - small children cannot act like adults no matter how disapproving you are. And again, we come back to the point that these families might well have pre-booked but have been moved anyway.

hifi · 31/08/2011 19:20

i travel at least 4 times a year with kids and have always sat with them.easy jet let families on after speedy boarders anyway,our last flight they put speedys and families on the first bus and the rest on the second.

exoticfruits · 31/08/2011 19:21

Now that mine are past the age of needing to sit near me and I have got to the stage of flying with just DH I really, really don't want an unsupervised DC sitting next to me!
Whereas I refuse on principle to pay £5 to the airline for something they are obliged to do anyway I would be far more willing to pay £5 to have a person aged 8yrs or older next to me!!

WreckaJones · 31/08/2011 20:25

"But as you say, the airline have a duty to comply with the regulations anyway, regardless of whether seat surcharges have been paid for. They can also instruct passengers to move in order to fulfil their obligations. Therefore I don't understand your point. The airline will make a judgement call on whether their seating arrangements Are complying.Therefore, any situation where a PASSENGER is asking other people to move, or asking other passengers to agree to certain stipulations is simply not relevant. Why would they need to? It is the Airlines job to do that.

AAARGH. I refer you to my second post on this:

"No one should have to sit next to an unaccompanied child on a flight. The airlines are pretending to unsuspecting punters this might be the case and getting them to cough up a fiver to 'protect' their choice of seat. So long as the airline are able to guarantee in writing that the person the child is sitting next to will be responsible for their health & safety throughout the journey (e.g. attach their oxygen mask if necessary, lead them to safety etc) then they can do this. But obviously they can't. For those willing to pay a fiver and getting outraged at the OP or anyone who has children not paying, why not be outraged at the airlines that they are making you pay for something that isn't guaranteed."

I have been very clear that this is the airline's problem and I would expect them to sort it. I would suggest to them that if they think they can legally pass on their responsibilities under the CAA and general H&S to a random stranger then they can get that guarantee in writing from their random passenger and pass it on to me. They would then have to point out to me that they can't get a random stranger to take responsibility for my child legally and I would have to point out to them precisely, this does not seem compliant with the CAA guidelines so you will have to sit a child unable to reach oxygen mask etc within adequate supervision of an accompanying adult. Me, for example.

"This thread is littered with people saying 'i'd give the passenger what for!' , 'i'd tell them to move' or 'i'd make sure they had a hellish journey next to my kid'! That is what the debate has been about."

I have never said any of that. You appear to have taken particular issue with me re the worthless guarantee which is purely a means of demonstrating to the airline that THEY have to fulfil their duty and they cannot pass it off onto a random stranger. I think you now understand that...not sure though.

"And as you now agree, it's irrelevant because the airline will comply with what it has to."

I agree that an airline will not be getting random strangers to guarantee that they will assist my pre-schooler (18 months by the way - and yes, I buy him a separate seat even though I don't have to) to reach oxygen because in doing so they would have to admit they are not complying with the guidelines. I don't recollect ever not agreeing with that? Was my whole point surely? Hence why pay £10 to 'guarantee' seats together that are guaranteed under CAA guidelines?

"Anything else is just what the parent might want - and that's a different issue." So long as it's not a H&S issue quite possibly - but there is the general tortious duty of care that the airline owes to both child and parent/accomp.adult in this situation which could encompass wider harm than that of a child not being tall enough to access oxygen. But that's not about compliance since it would all be decided retrospectively in court.

"And incidentally there is no guarantee that in an emergency the parent wont panic and possibly not fit their childs oxygen mask correctly, or may forget to fit theirs first, or may be slower than a 'stranger' would be."

No, or course not. But in that circumstance who's the parent going to sue? Themselves? Or will they just be devastated and consumed by their own guilt. See if I let an airline effectively usurp/reallocate my parental responsibility to a random stranger they sit my pre-schooler next to, I would want that explained to that stranger and for them to realise that the airline was now placing them under a duty of care towards my child if they wanted to stay in that seat. That's the swap the airline is effecting.

"You could argue that a parent in charge of a 4 yr old and a newborn might be less effective in a crisis than if the 4 yr old was sat elsewhere."

Yep you could argue that. Not sure how that's relevant but still...keep those straw men coming.

"Thats why the airline cannot and will not guarantee the DETAIL of how anyone one will respond in a crisis- they simply comply with the requirement to make sure there are people who potentially can assist."

No. That's why an airline will not guarantee pre-booked seats.

"A parent who is highly anxious and might pass out in a crisis would not be held liable for failing to assist their child- and neither would a stranger."

Not if that child was sitting next to its parent, no. If the airline wants to place a pre-schooler next to a stranger then yes, they would be trying to force that person to be responsible in order to comply with the CAA.

Andrewofgg · 31/08/2011 20:32

grovel Yours of 17.38 is spot on and I accept the correction. It's the children we would be thinking of, not the parents. But the effect would be the same!

Coconutty · 31/08/2011 20:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hullygully · 31/08/2011 20:42

Isn't everyone lovely?

Andrewofgg · 31/08/2011 20:43

Depressing.

WreckaJones · 31/08/2011 20:47

Oh thank god. The love baton brigade has arrived. Hully do your best worst please.

Yep Coconutty - shitty though it is on the person who had to move that's entirely what I would think any airline would do with a 2 year old. I can't see they have much choice which is why "speedy boarding" or pre-booked seats are just taking a gamble. I hope Easyjet gave him his speedy boarding payment back.

cleanandclothed · 31/08/2011 20:58

Lyingwitch do you not think that in a situation where I was nearest an exit, separated from my toddler by you and others, I would impede your evacuation? I agree my toddlers safety would also be compromised, but I think everyone is safer ( by which I mean total evacuation time is less) if I am sat next to my toddler .

SeniorWrangler · 31/08/2011 21:05

That's is the whole point. IT IS FOR THE COMMON GOOD. Therefore parents are not required to pay extra for it.

northerngirl41 · 31/08/2011 21:12

SeniorWrangler - on that basis they should be giving free seats to everyone in order that they can all expand their cultural awareness; giving away free booze; insisting everyone pees before going on the plane and banning all hand luggage - after all "it's for the common good".

They are not a bloody charity - they are a business. And if you want a seat next to your child you should pay for it.

SeniorWrangler · 31/08/2011 21:15

So should disabled people be allowed to sit near the exits for the extra leg room then, because they have paid for speedy boarding?

Quite a lot of hand luggage is banned, incidentally.

WreckaJones · 31/08/2011 21:16

northerngirl41 Are you happy to pay for the use of a seatbelt on an airplane even though you are required by law to wear one and will not be allowed to bring your own seatbelt to use on the plane?

SeniorWrangler · 31/08/2011 21:19

She probably has invested in her own life jacket as well LOL

VivaLeBeaver · 31/08/2011 21:24

Why should customers pay to ensure that airlines comply with caa regulations?

ilovesooty · 31/08/2011 21:29

I don't see why that elderly chap in Cocunutty's story should have been inconvenienced for a family who quite blatantly stated they weren't prepared to pay for speedy boarding. Perhaps they should have been told to leave the plane if no one would move for them.