Jersey murders: to think the doctors who treated the murderer must feel sick to their stomachs.

[WonderMa]

I do not know how they could have treated him knowing what he had done, seeing the other bodies come in.

They should have left him in agony or to bleed to death, then he may have felt something of what his victims, including his own children, felt.

I can't even respect what they did. In their position, I would have downed tools and walked out, fuck my job.

Now he is probably pain free and being guarded in a comfy hospital bed while those 3 kids are laid out in the mortuary. It will later come out that the poor guy was upset that his marriage broke up and that's why he did it and he will spend a few years having all his needs taken care of in a prison and then be let out before he's 50.

Makes me feel so sick. If this is cilivisation, then something's gone wrong somewhere.

YABU. And thick. and completely ridiculous

i think the fact they carried out their job makes me respect them even more

its easy for us to sit and say what we think we would or like to do
to rise above that, makes for a special person

So very, very unreasonable.

You are everything that is wrong with civilisation.

So pleased this has been a unanimous YABU.

Belief in humanity reconfirmed.

I see the perspective the OP is coming from, it is the reasoning behind the death penalty and capital punishment, but I don't agree with it.

We don't know the full context (not that it would excuse this IMO). But above all, he stabbed himself in a bid to die and obviously wanted to, so wouldn't it be worse then for him to have to live with what he has done?

WiiUnfit, thanks for posting that. Although I'd heard of the Hippocratic Oath, I never knew what it actually was. It's quite a fine piece of writing isn't it?

Sorry, Andrew, my mistake!

at least there is one positive thing about this.

At least the response has been unanimous.

Maybe we live in a civilised society after all, op?

This is a deperate case and the man seen wielding the knife was clearly deeply troubled, having recently attempted suicide.

How mawkish of OP to want it discussed.

You are being quite sickeningly unreasonable.

declaration of geneva updated version for medical professionals

I solemnly pledge to consecrate my life to the service of humanity;
I will give to my teachers the respect and gratitude that is their due;
I will practice my profession with conscience and dignity;
The health of my patient will be my first consideration;
I will respect the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died;
I will maintain by all the means in my power, the honor and the noble traditions of the medical profession;
My colleagues will be my sisters and brothers;
I will not permit considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
I will maintain the utmost respect for human life;
I will not use my medical knowledge to violate human rights and civil liberties, even under threat;
I make these promises solemnly, freely and upon my honor.

and this is the original hippocratic oath the updated version was given by wiiunfit above

I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art; to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.

I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone.

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.

But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.

I will not cut for stone, even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art.

In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.

All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret and will never reveal.

If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.
?

LDNmummy Its not really the same logic as that behind capital punishment though is it? I am against the death penalty but at least in western societies it is imposed after due process and appeals. It also tends to be swift and (they say) relatively painless. What the OP is prosposing is a long drawn out agonising death for someone who has been found guilty of no crime. And the puishment be imposed by soemone not appointed by society to do so.

OP you are a moron. YABU.

Oh my God you are being SO UNFAIR.

Yes, the doctors know and yes they did know at the time. I know because I was and still am 'there'.

Everyone involved has shown huge integrity in this very challenging situation.

What an utterly horrible person you sound.

I'm a nurse and I have treated patients who have murdered. It's not my job to decide who lives or dies, it's my job to care enough to help. Get a nursing or even a medical degree, practice with it, and then come back to me about who you would or wouldn't treat.
I trained with a guy from northern Ireland who said if it came to it, he wouldn't treat Ian Paisley. Every time i talk to him I'm so glad he is not working as a nurse. It's not our place to judge.
Anyway, you don't know what has happened in this situation, or what this man's state of mind, let alone innocent until proven guilty.

Incase you couldn't tell, YABU

Thanks for the post sarahtigh. It is good to remember there are many physician's oaths (and that the often quoted Hippocratic oath is a bit more than 'do no harm'). I've always been fond of Maimondies' oath for physicians:

The Oath of Maimonides
The eternal providence has appointed me to watch over the life and health of Thy creatures. May the love for my art actuate me at all time; may neither avarice nor miserliness, nor thirst for glory or for a great reputation engage my mind; for the enemies of truth and philanthropy could easily deceive me and make me forgetful of my lofty aim of doing good to Thy children.

May I never see in the patient anything but a fellow creature in pain.

Grant me the strength, time and opportunity always to correct what I have acquired, always to extend its domain; for knowledge is immense and the spirit of man can extend indefinitely to enrich itself daily with new requirements.

Today he can discover his errors of yesterday and tomorrow he can obtain a new light on what he thinks himself sure of today. Oh, God, Thou has appointed me to watch over the life and death of Thy creatures; here am I ready for my vocation and now I turn unto my calling.

I'm glad I dont live in a society where hcp's can choose who is worth saving and who isn't, it is there job to treat patients, the law is there to punish them. It is totally right that he was treated so he can stand trial and if found guilty can be made to pay for what he has done, this is called justice

OP YABU (just in case you hadn't guessed.)

It is not a Dr or nurses job to pass judgement.

for murderers or on the battlefield in Afghanistan where British Servicemen and women care for all casualties.

It is their JOB it is what they are trained to do, and most do very well.

Thank god OP you are not a HCP!

Ooh I've been deleted! In short the op is sadly naive, shall we say ;) Not that I said anything others haven't already, mind. Still, MNHQ perogative, and all that.

You're most welcome snorbs

I have read this whole thread but based on your OP YABU.

I am a solicitor and when I was a trainee I did a seat in criminal law. We defended murderers, rapists, child abusers, wife batterers, etc, etc, etc. You just get detached from it. At the end of the day, it's a job. They are entitled to a defence and are innocent until proven guilty.

^ sorry should have said, I haven't read this whole thread.

One of the stupidest OPs I think I've ever seen.

What would you do if you were a Christian doctor and someone needed an abortion? Or perhaps if you were a JW and a someone needed blood transfusion?

shakes head

YOU, OP, are not God, YOU do not choose.

OP, medicine is a tough trade: that's why medics, like soldiers, tend to have lots of very black humour & lots of substance abuse.

Your assertion that medics should make moral judgements about their patients is quite understandable but not practicable: he killed 3 children & 3 adults, so let him die in agony. But what if the 3 children were only VSI: let him die, but give him morphine? The permutations are endless, but where do you draw the line?

If our medics (& soldiers, & many others) are to retain their sanity, they NEED to operate in a wholly amoral framework (that means that they are not required to make moral judgements, only medical or military or whatever ones; that's why hospitals have Ethics Committees). The nicest of my DC is about to start medical training, and I want him to be able to just do the job he wants to do and not to have to also worry about whether or not he should actually be doing it.

They would have to refer them to someone else if they didn't agree