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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder why all benefits are not limited to two children only

425 replies

SuzysZoo · 10/08/2011 13:59

Ok. I know that this is going to be a bit contentious. I don't mean retrospectively either. I just wonder why, in these cash strapped times, the government doesn't just say that all benefits, child benefit etc should be limited IN THE FUTURE, IN AT LEAST 9 MONTHS TIME, to 2 children per family only...... My point being that if you have more you should support them yourself. AIBU?

OP posts:
joric · 10/08/2011 14:42

Hang on, I'll check :(

GypsyMoth · 10/08/2011 14:43

i already have,you've mis quoted

onagar · 10/08/2011 14:44

The OP saw the flaw in her plan and said so which is fair enough. I think we'd all like to find some fairer and more practical way of working things if we could.

However, we then have people saying things like 'but if you can't afford kids don't have them'. Do people really not see that a well off family could suddenly become a poor family?

I mean it gets explained on everyone of these threads. How hard is it to grasp?

olgafromthevolga · 10/08/2011 14:45

I am not sure why the number should be two, and the OP clearly said "more than nine months from now" so we're not talking about already born or conceived children, or children with SN who will get benefits in their own right, but why should people feel entitled to conceive children that they cant support, and expect other people to support them?

twinklypearls · 10/08/2011 14:45

Bertie Botts said it, to be fair I misquoted someone earlier, it is easily done. I totally made a dick of myself as I kept going on and one.

onagar · 10/08/2011 14:48

olgafromthevolga, what about people who already had the kids and then became poor?

GypsyMoth · 10/08/2011 14:48

under op's proposal children with SN would NOT get benefits....none

CogitoErgoSometimes · 10/08/2011 14:50

"why should people feel entitled to conceive children that they cant support, and expect other people to support them?"

Because, ultimately, we need those children to be born, grow up, get jobs and pay taxes. With a declining birth-rate and an ageing population it doesn't take a genius to see that we either have to keep importing people from overseas or encourage some home-grown breeding. Having said that, I think there should be caps on total household income from benefits depending on the number of adults and children in that household. Fix at a realistic level, treat people like grown-ups and let them manage their budget the same as everyone else.

Original poster
SuzysZoo · 10/08/2011 14:50

Well, if you aren't poor and then become poor it's true that that is one of many flaws in this...... I'm just saying it would have made me think twice about having more than 2 kids, that's all..............even though I am working......

OP posts:
BooyHoo · 10/08/2011 14:50

so man and woman have two children and then split up. the man goes on and starts a new relationship with a woman who has no children,and they have a baby. are they entitled to CB or not? because he already has 2 dcs that are getting CB but this is her first. who decides their entitlement?

GypsyMoth · 10/08/2011 14:53

thats a third,fourth fifth child i mean....should they be disabled,then tough! the first 2 siblings got benefits,the third might be disabled,but the benefits quota is used up already??

turquoisetumble · 10/08/2011 14:53

BooyHoo. Why should there be any benefit for children? I think that's a good question to ask. Some people would claim that there shouldn't be and that by not taking responsibility for your own life and offspring, you are contributing to the society of entitlement.

Anyway, for me the answer would be to ensure that the poorest members of society are able to have a family and not just the richest. I would want to ensure that no child grows up in poverty. However, personally I don't think I should have to give extra money to someone who wants to have more children than that. Benefits are not a magic tap of money. We all pay for them and all need to believe they are being spent in the right way. They come from funds that can be spent elsewhere - like better education in inner city schools, Sure Start programmes or keeping our libraries (so poor kids get a chance to read books they don't have at home) etc.

How do we ensure that parents spend the money on the children? How do we know it improves their lives, rather than encouraging a mentality where young girls can get pregnant because they won't be on the street. Likewise, how do we stop children being neglected by parents of families sliding into poverty if we cut benefits? I don't think there are easy answers, but I think it's OK to question it and look for alternatives.

Thisisanicecage - you are having a laugh, aren't you? Stop off in Easterhouse much?

Poweredbypepsi · 10/08/2011 14:53

I am pregnant with dc5 and at the moment things are ok if child benefit etc was taken away we would obviously have less but we would survive. However 2 years ago with 3 and 4 dcs when dh lost his job we would have been in trouble.
I disagree with limiting child benefit to two just because it would be so hard to distinguish between people who have fallen on hard times and those who take the piss having 10 children on benefits or whatever your issue is.

twinklypearls · 10/08/2011 14:54

Onagar they are worthy poor as opposed to feckless poor. Very different kettle of fish.

olgafromthevolga · 10/08/2011 14:54

Ok onagar, I understand, so if you could afford a third kid tomorrow, and then needed benefits in the future, then yes, thats a fair point, and sorry for thinking so clumsily...but the general principle of people taking responsibility today for what they can afford based on their current circumstances surely has to be OK?

Original poster
SuzysZoo · 10/08/2011 14:54

Well, perhaps it would be a max of child benefit for 2 kids per household. So in BooyHoos scenario, they all get it, yes.

OP posts:
LolaRennt · 10/08/2011 14:54

Bubbles I quoted and agrred with you- I thought Confused

I think the gov should help people who have been helping themselves out but people who choose to have many children whilst already unemployed shouldn't receive more benefit. Or did I misunderstand you?

PintOfStellaAndBuckfastChaser · 10/08/2011 14:54

YABU and YANBU, I can see where your coming from op, but like others have said, it's not fair to penalise hard working families, who lose their jobs- through no fault of their own, or SAHP who's partners/husbands/wives fuck off and leave them, after they've had children that they could afford at the time.

Although something does need to be done about the 'Jeremy Kyle' families, and before anyone jumps on me, these types DO EXIST, every 'rough' council estate has at least a handful of these types (even half decent areas like mine).

There's mothers in my area, that DO pop out a child a year, even though they are in receipt of benefits as LONE parents, (and before anyone asks how I know this, these people seem to like bragging about how much hand outs they get Confused ).
I can't understand why these 'lone' parents don't get investigated for fraud, every time they conceive a child, whilst in receipt of LONE parent benefits, because it's pretty obvious they're not as single as they make out, unless it's immaculate conceptions!

I do think that the amount of child tax credits that you can get for each additional child are abit too high, if in receipt of maximum TC'S, that and additional child benefit added together for each extra child is something like £55-£60 PER WEEK, PER CHILD. There is no way it costs this much to feed and clothe each child. Maybe an extra £10 to extend the portions of meals you would be preparing anyway, Maybe £10 for extra clothes and £5 for things like birthday/christmas/treats. I mean you already have gas/electric/rent e.t.c to pay anyway before you have anymore DC, so I can't understand why the government feel the need to pay out so much. No wonder you get the 'Jeremy Kyle' lot cashing in.

I just think that it's unfortunate, that in order to clamp down on these people, low paid hard working families would suffer as well.
However, as another poster mentioned there could be ways round it simalar to JSA rules.

Nancy66 · 10/08/2011 14:55

Or......anybody that has more than 2 kids has those kids removed and put in care and only when they earn over £100k can they turn-up and reclaim them.

BooyHoo · 10/08/2011 14:56

"for me the answer would be to ensure that the poorest members of society are able to have a family and not just the richest. I would want to ensure that no child grows up in poverty. However, personally I don't think I should have to give extra money to someone who wants to have more children than that"

more children than what though? who decides what constitutes 'family'? how manychildren makes a family? 1, 2, 4?

joric · 10/08/2011 14:57

IloveTIFFANY

Really sorry for misquote earlier on :(

twinklypearls · 10/08/2011 14:57

Nancy you could save up your tesco vouchers that way you would only need £50K worth of vouchers to claim your kids back when they have their double value deal on.

Saski · 10/08/2011 14:59

I don't see how anyone could disagree with the sentiment that one shouldn't have children they can't afford. Moreover the OP is saying beyond TWO children. I have two children; I don't feel as though I have been deprived of a more complete motherhood experience because I don't have 3 or 4 or 5. Kids are expensive, and it's not feasible to expect taxpayers to pay for large families on benefits given the current economic situation.
It's tragically unfair, however, for a child to be raised in poverty because of a parent's bad choices.

I'm completely baffled by the "why should I not be able to have a 3rd/4th/5th child because I can't afford it" argument. Isn't it obvious?

BooyHoo · 10/08/2011 14:59

suzy, what if all the children live in the same house though as would happen if i met a new partner (i have 2 dcs that live with me) and he wanted to have a child.