To wonder why all benefits are not limited to two children only

[SuzysZoo]

Ok. I know that this is going to be a bit contentious. I don't mean retrospectively either. I just wonder why, in these cash strapped times, the government doesn't just say that all benefits, child benefit etc should be limited IN THE FUTURE, IN AT LEAST 9 MONTHS TIME, to 2 children per family only...... My point being that if you have more you should support them yourself. AIBU?

That's a ridiculous post, Sharney, and doesn't add to the debate at all.

Disagree actually carpetlover which is of coarse why I posted it. What do you think poor women do when they're terrified and desperate? Or are we just discussing the famous British middle class whose only thoughts on state benefits fall into one of two categories. 1) It may come handy or 2) It really is over-used. And by the way, you not agreeing with my opinion does not make it ridiculous.

Elephant in the living room: The world is overpopulated.

Dont worry- seee my earlier post. John Gray says 50% of us will die soon.

I don't think it's ridiculous because I disagree with it. I think it's ridiculous because one doesn't automatically lead to the other.

Maybe capping CB is state sanctioned celibacy? Why can't it be that if you cannot afford to support another child and you cannot be reasonably sure of your contraception then you don't have sex?

The very small number of genuine contraceptive failures does not equal the number of unplanned pregnancies. And unplanned pregnancies disproportionately occur in low income situations and teenage girls. Therefore, we need to work out why this is happening and work to bring those numbers down.

But saying, 'well the government wont give any more money therefore theyre forcing me into an abortion is just a cop-out.

carpetlover How on earth do you know "unplanned pregnancies disproportionately occur in low income situations and teenage girls"? Now that really is ridiculous! Not all unplanned pregnancies end with a live birth. Your presumption appears to be women on child benefits get knocked up purposely for the money and will cease their risky behaviour if they know they wont be entitled to 16+ years of unearned money. To say "well the government wont give me any more money therefore they're forcing me into an abortion" might well be a cop-out for some but for a lot more it will just be another fact of life. I'm not, of-coarse talking about everyone who is unmarried and jobless here. I'm talking about the desperate.

The government is quite happy to stop child benefit for those who fall into the higher taxation bracket though. Perhaps the middle class mum who falls pregnant might not keep the child.

Often especially in the South East the salary of circa 40K does not go very far and there is a mortgage to pay etc.

I think women do need to be more responsible with family planning whatever there social background. Also as I stated before it really annoys me that people who reside in the UK but have children in other EU countries can claim CB and even if they go back to their original country it still continues to be paid.

Gosh that has annoyed me so much alemci that I have to go and lie down.

I have experience as part of my SW course of working with women facing unplanned pregnancy. However, I wasn't suggesting unplanned pregnancies only occured in those groups just that there was a lot more of it-a disproportionate number.
And I don't at all think that women get pregnant deliberately to get CB. I actually think that's myth spouted by the Right. However, I do think there is more of a 'less to lose' mentality for some young women which is something we need to address.

When I was a teenager and in my 20s with piles of student debt, I viewed an unplanned pregnancy as a terrible thing which must be avoided at all costs. Therefore, I took contraception very seriously. Of course some people also do this and still get pregnant but the majority of unplanned pregnancies are not due to a failure of contraceptives when used properly.

So my point was that if I could not support a child I would avoid sex rather than risk an unwanted pregnancy as I think it's ridiculous to say after the fact that you are being forced into an abortion because the government wont pay. Of course we shouldn't allow children to be brought up in poverty but neither is it ok for women just to say 'oh I just got carried away but that's ok' It's not ok. It's irresponsible.

But I still don't agree with the OP because I think that's too simplistic.

ok, I am going to stick my neck out here and say I have 2 dc's and I must admit that even when I was working full time as a single parent (on not bad money), I never took the child allowance into my income. Although I received it of course to me it paid towards childcare etc. I agree with the OP in the fact that if you are having children you know you cannot afford then why do it.... Personally I stopped at two because I knew that as a child of 5 I could not afford anymore and i watched my mum struggle and did not want that for my two kids

agree, i have stopped at 2 as cant afford any more

We're about to have our fourth next month but then we waited until late 30s before even contemplating our first because we wanted to make sure we were as secure as possible. It may have been too late but that would have been tough for us because no way could I justify doing it until we could afford it. It would have been irresponsible.

I've got 4 DC and I object to Jonathon Porritt calling me irresponsible. He is a stupid cunt if he thinks abortion is the answer to global warming. I'll worry about my carbon footprint when our politicians stop flying around the world on holidays and when big business takes full responsibility for the damage caused to wildlife and the environment in general, in the pursuit of huge profits.

I haven't been on a plane since 1997 and would argue that my carbon footprint is less than someone with no DC, who flies to go on holiday several times per year.

We wanted four but couldn't afford them financially and with the work we would have had to do, not emotionally either.

Sharney: there is a choice between a baby and abortion. It comes before the baby. It's a choice we made.

There's so much bad language here.

Just to add that I am not on benefits - my dh is working his arse off to support us. He also pays shitloads of tax and we are about to lose our CB. We get no tax credits. We are squeezed all the way along but do not for one moment resent a penny of his tax being paid to support people on benefits, who genuinely need the support. It's right that those who can, support those in need. It's what a civilised society is about.

I do not care how many dc's people have to be honest. I personally stopped at 2 because that is all I could afford (working and tax credits etc). If others want 2,4 6, children then that is up to them but they will have to adjust thier belts accordingly

I agree that as far as pregnancy goes there should be a lot more education and personal responsibility. I really do think a lot more needs to be done at a secondary school level on the responsibilities of being a parent. I also think that schools should have classes in finances and budgeting. And surely free contraception would be less expensive to the taxpayer than child benefits?

What's the point of that comment Blueberties? Are you my mum?

It was an observation. I think if people are allowed to say "stupid cunt" they are allowed to say "there's a lot of bad language". Or does free speech only work in your direction.

Contraception is free. You can get condoms for free if you are on benefits, I think? I might be wrong, do correct me if so.

Sharney people aren't responding to sex education. When you've no qualifications, you haven't troubled yourself at school so you won't get a job, you only care about drinking and boyfriends and sex because you're young, you're stuck at home with your mum, and she's a single mum, and not around much anyway, and you get more money and maybe somewhere to live if you get a baby - all the sex education in the world can't compete with that.

You can say what you like Blue, just seemed a bit preachy to me and pointless.

Well I think your comment was very pointless and snippy. So what.

blueberries i agree, that is the most offensive word in the dictionary (if it is actually in it).. taking it back i would not expect my two dc's to ever call me that and if they did, as big as they are I would shove a bar of soap down thier mouth :(

ok meant the (see you next tuesday word) mumsnet has gone fecking mad