to my neighbour?

[donotlikeit]

Long post - sorry!

We bought an apartment a couple of months back. It is an older property divided into two flats. We have the upstairs one. The owner downstairs X owns a building repair company and rents his flat out to one of his workers. He has owned the place for 2-3 years.

A couple of weeks back I got a knock on my door. X had some problem with water blockage downstairs. Apparently water is backing up in the kitchen downstairs and not draining properly. I told him to speak with DH regarding it. But also told him that if he wanted to charge for anything as communal repairs, he would need to send us an invoice first for us to agree on, and we would prefer a neutral third party company to do the work.

A day later, some guys come and did the work of pressure cleaning the drain and repairing an iron pipe that had cracked a bit with age.

A week later X knocks again on my door, and said that the tenant below was on holiday and the apartment below was flooded as his kitchen sink had backed up with water, and we musn't throw cooking oil/lard down the sink. We never deepfry anything. We are vegetarian and pretty much bake everything. And in any case, even if we did use oil, we would never throw it down the sink. So I was quite offended and told him that we know how to manage our apartment and we are not stupid to throw stuff down the sink. I an Asian, and I felt that he thought I was lying and frying pakoras all the time .

DH contacted X and said that if the drains downstairs had backed up again, it really has nothing to do with us, and the repair guys didn't do a proper job. It seems all was ok.

Well, today we got a bill from X for £300 as as our share of the drainage work and the changing of one pipe on an outside wall. In that letter, was a long explanation on how his kitchen was damaged. I called him up and said that the bill was too high and that a) the drainage blockage in his apartment was really not our issue b) I was not comfortable with him using his own company workers, we would have preferred a neutral third party quote c) I would be willing to share the material cost of replacing the split pipe, but that would be it.

X got quite aggressive on the phone and saying he had done us a favour and we now didn't want to pay and that I was insulting him. I told him I did not want him to raise his voice with me and that in future I did not want him knocking on my door and that he should set up a time to come by when DH is around to resolve any communal issue. And I put down the phone.

Guess what, 20 minutes later, a knock on my door and there X was, asking for money and generally being an arse. I told him that I had told him not to come by when I am alone at the home, and next time I would call the police.

I am usually quite calm but this guy really riles me up. He is aggressive, a bit sneering and generally seems a bit of a loose cannon. Also, I work from home and do not want to be disturbed without prior notice, except if there is an emergency.

So,
AIBU to have said I will call the police if he makes a nuisance of himself again?
AIBU to not want to pay £300 for something that I am not clear is a communal issue?
AIBU to not give a rat's arse about the condition of the kitchen below and think that it is really not my problem?

pchip, "you did not have any qualified professional come and assess the problem to verify the professional assessment of your downstairs neighbour (who is a professional in this field and owns his own company)"

The OP had already told her neighbour that she "would prefer a neutral third party company to do the work" but he went ahead regardless and did it anyway. And as for him being a professional in this field - well there's professionals and professionals, aren't there? Personally I've had far too many tradesmen suck their teeth at me.

Oh, and this particular "professional" told OP it had been caused by putting fat down the drain, which OP knows she has not done, so no deep knowledge of plumbing needed to know his assessment was wrong?

Just looking at the bill. It says "a build up of cooking lard has caused the recent blockage and subsequent damage"

So X assumes I have been frying Indian snacks like crazy and pouring the cooking oil down the sink because he thinks I lack common sense (and obviously any healthy habits). What evidence does he have..I am slim so don't obviously look like a samosa guzzling queen. And in no less than lard!

Well, I would be happy to have a neutral party inspect the pipes, see where there is evidence of any fat in the pipes (and I bet it would be on his drain). DH is back home now and he says he has spoken with X and X has backed down and said the problem is probably a build up over years . But he still wants us to pay half.

I think you should stop making refference to the "indian" cooking etc it is irrelevent op and presumtuous he may have said it to anyone unless he said look stop cooking pakoras and pouring the fat down the sink you need to let the assumed rasism drop I dont think it makes any difference to the out come for you and is derailing your thread.

You have only owned the flat for a few months so sensibly you should be able to see and understand that a build up is over a period of time, probably before you owned the flat, but id guess you are still responsible for that if it is proven to be the case.

When I asked X why he hadn't gotten a third neutral party as I had requested, he said the work needed to be done right away and there was no time.

Really, as far as I see his kitchen saga is not my problem. I am going to get all the advice I can, arm myself and not pay him a penny if I don't have to. If he had been decent, I would have probably given him £100 quid even if I didn't have to, just to keep neighborly peace and get him off my back.

I hate aggressive men!!! Oops, hope I haven't offended anyone with that one

festi,

It was his disbelieving look, when I said we don't deep-fry and splatter fat into the sink.

These things are a gut instinct. I think I am fairly perceptive and not prone to drama.

in any case, you are right, it is a side issue

donotlikeit The class/race stuff you feel guilty about speaking up about is well known amongst my group of friends so no flaming from me - middle/upper classes have the whole PLU thing going on so in effect can, quite literally, "afford" to be colour-blind, I have an British-Indian friend who went to a very prestigious girls' boarding school and she has had loads of comments from school friends who love her dearly along the lines of the comments from your old boss - and while she does her bit to educate them I guess she too sees it as a back-handed compliment because the inference is that well my racist comments don't apply to you, you're PLU. She too is vegetarian and I don't think she has ever cooked with Ghee in her life and would be v offended at the inference too that she didn't know how to dispose properly of food/oil etc in the kitchen.

On the flip side, the most anti-immigration person I have ever met was a second generation British Nigerian, working class, (ex boyf) who had watched his mum fight for unskilled jobs all her life with cheaper labour arriving from abroad all the time so his view was pull up the ladder once you're in otherwise you're not going to survive. I'm not agreeing with him or the PLU set, but I kind of understand where those views come from and why and it is economics (or class) which can shape those views.

However, having been brought up and lived in areas of east london with lots of recent immigration there can be problems with people putting stuff down the sink that will cause problems (not just Asian, it's where people have emigrated from countries recently without having previously experienced the "luxury" of ancient British sanitation - newer, less Victorian sanitation would bear the strain better - or have been used to to more basic sanitation which would not include running water and sinks in kitchens - and so are just unfamiliar with what standard British plumbing can bear - it's similar to me going abroad and thinking yuk why do I have to put my used toilet paper in a bin instead of flushing it down the toilet - you just have to get used to a particular country's plumbing set-up and work round it!)

I think to be fair to him (a leeetle bit - despite his aggressive attitude) you weren't v proactive when he complained and it would have been a good idea to get DH to go round with a camera and take a photo of the damage and take a look at what it was that was going wrong to try and determine if/how it could be related to your flat. It wasn't urgent or an emergency to you but it may have been to him and maybe he couldn't wait until you sanctioned work going ahead (though my suspicions about the value of the work and who he got to do it also make me think if the emergency was genuine, he is capitalising on it to make a quick buck). I think DH is going to have to do this now and get a clear statement of work that was done, what was replaced and where and then you are going to have to see where you go from there. I wouldn't be handing any money over in the meantime.

Thank you BBQ and Dr.P and others who did not simply dismiss my racism comment out-of-hand. I know it is a really silly/trivial issue but I cannot tell you how much better it makes me feel to have your validation. This stuff can make one feel so small.

You are right, I will tell DH to have another chat with X. The more I think of it though, X is trying to conflate two things - a slightly split pipe in a clearly common area, which had nothing to do with the problem and the actual back-up of water in his apartment. The former is clearly a joint responsibility, but the latter...? Very doubtful in my mind. And it also sets a precedence that every time there is a problem with the kitchen drainage downstairs, we have to pay to get it fixed. I'm afraid it does not pass the bullshit smell-test for me.

But next week, will get on the phone and get clarification from all authorities involved. We bought this place because DH has a short-term need to be in this part of the country and we thought it would be easier than renting. Well, we know better now

WhereYouLeftIt fair enough, I'm not a lawyer however I wanted to see if the OP understood what freehold, leasehold and commonhold meant because I'm sure there must be some written agreement as to the common aspects of the property and that surely would be the logical starting point.

The other aspect - that of implied / assumed racism - still baffles me.

FWIW having had several drain problems in our current (modern) home soon after we moved in, and one drain problem in our previous Victorian home the bill sounds expensive, in fact at least double what it should be.

However the back up in the sink below was just a symptom of a problem in pipes that you probably both use, just he got the symptom because he was lower down and the backup would have to be very severe to affect upstairs so Y might BU in regard to not wanting to split the bill. In is feasible that it was a build up over years, also feasible it was the previous occupant of your flat pouring oil down, in which case, why should he pay for that?

I think you should seek a second opinion with a view to splitting a reduced bill.

If it's a shared drain then you are normally jointly responsible for repairs to it, check your deeds to make sure though.

I don't think £300 sounds too bad as it cost us £100 to get a guy out to clear just a blockage never mind replace a bit of drain.

He sounds like an arse though.

Is it me or has the main point (man downstairs gets works done himself and tries to bill OP) gone off at a tangent?

Unless an emergency, which would be flooding not a blocked sink, 3 quotes should be obtained for works before they are instructed.Are the drains shared?

Are they insured?

Is there a management company? If not how do the tenants sort joint issues (such as a new roof) out in the future?

My FIL fixes drains for a living, i just asked him if that price was about right and he said if he could get away with charging that amount for that much work he'd be living in a palace somewhere!

Of course probably depends where about you live, were in the North west and he said up here that would of cost around £120 - £150.

Hi, sorry meant to add, even if it was that much, surely he would be paying half as well. So there is no way it could of been £600 for the total. and if it was it's his company, he should have got it for free for his own house or at least a decent discount.

Smells a bit well a lot to me. I wonder if he did this to the previous owners and this is why they left. He can't just do the work and send the bill without the other parties agreement.

He did not let another plumber or whatever, come out check there was a blockage and give a quote which he could then have undercut.

We don't even know for sure there was a blockage. I wouldn't be rushing to pay him, and I would send him a recorded delivery message saying that in future no work is to be carried out without your prior written permission or no bills will be paid.

I actually felt sorry for you until you made the "I only mix with upper class people" comment. You probably give off a snobbish stench which is why he he talks to you like that. I know Asian people who have been to private school and only mix with "upper class", and I think their parents brainwash them into thinking they're better than everyone else. That is why he is probably getting frustrated by you. Oh and before you try to pull out the racist card, I am Asian myself and am also Muslim. I actually talk to all kinds of people, but the key is talking to people at their level and not get on your high horse just because you have a PhD (which is not really hard to achieve if you have a chosen subject you have been studying your whole life!!). You seem to have already made your mind up that you have a problem with working class people which is really sad. You may have the education, but you certainly don't know how to charm people.

About your plumbing problem: You SHOULD give a rats arse about what's happening downstairs because in a few weeks or months time the same could happen to your pipes and a flood in your kitchen or bathroom would mean a leaky ceiling downstairs, which WILL be your problem.

A PhD isn't that hard? Oh really?

No it's not! If you have been studying a subject since your first year of your undergraduate degree, then studying it and doing research for another few years isn't very hard; and it certainly shouldn't make anyone feel they're better than anyone. PhD's don't teach you common sense and I've learnt that through working with a variety of "doctors" in the past who don't know the difference between their head and their arse.

Thanks Mrs.Bloom.

My Phd is from MIT and my postdoc from Harvard, not the easiest graduate schools to get into. I worked as an advisor to CEOs of some of the top companies on mega million deals, and I didn't do this by having a 'snotty attitude', but by being calm and professional in my dealings. Yes, I expect a modicum of respect, I think I have earned it - I am a 40 year old professional woman, not a ditzy teenager.

If some arse thinks he can look down at me and assume that I don't know how to live in a civilized way simply because of the color of my skin, I will be pissed.

I have not lived in the area we currently are before. My DH has a contract in an out-of-the way area for a few months and I have taken a 80% sabbatical from my work. I chose this apartment because I loved it and it is really close to DH's work, and did not imagine I would have to deal with harassment.

That's all on this subject from me.

Thanks every one, for taking the time to respond and loads of good advice here.

Hahaha! A PhD isn't hard... Whatever next? (yes, I have one)

I wonder if you have a PhD? because your argument is flawed and incoherent. First you say its not hard. Like you know how hard all PhDs are. Then you say the OP shouldn't feel a sense of achievement...why is that? I feel academically superior to people to don't have a a degree. Note. NOT superior, in the academic and professional real. Are women not allowed to take in themselves then?

And the you veer off into saying having a PhD doesn't give you common sense. Well, no, unless you did a PhD in Common Sense more useful for Nuclear Physicists than Study and Research from the University of Cliches, Platitude Central.

take pride in themselves...

ugh!

I live in a flat in a converted house (6 flats), we are on the second floor but the downstairs flat did have a problem with drains which was considered a 'communal' repair in the same way that if there was a problem with the roof, everyone would have to contribute - not just the top floor flat. Ours was covered by buildings insurance so it didn't cost anyone but I do know, that if works come to a total of £250 for each flat, there is a section 20 consultation process which must be followed. Have a look at www.lease-advice.org/publications/documents/document.asp?item=19

Oh here we go - DrPoli, OP bought the PhD and "upper class" mumbo jumbo into the thread, when there was actually no need for it, because if this "arse" (as she describes him) is of a lower class than her, then he won't really know or care what degree she has. I am sure he cares more about the plumbing bill than her academia.
MY argument is incoherent and flawed? Erm, no, actually you'll find OP's argument was incoherent and flawed in the sense that she went from complaining about a plumbing problem and then accusing someone of racism and then blowing her horn about her being "upper class" and then finally admitting that she doesn't mind if upper class people make inappropriate comments about race. That's pretty incohorent. I have merely forwarded my opinion about the whole matter. Yes I do think PhD's are easy if you have the time and have been dedicated to your chosen subject for a majority of your academic life.
Also, I don't know why you have turned this into a feminist issue. There is a time and place for women to take pride of themselves because of their education. The thread had absolutely NOTHING to do with this. I won't be sharing my academia on this thread, because it has nothing to do with anything. I'm also not a show off, or claim to be upper class.

OP, well done on your postdoc from Harvard. I'm glad you managed to get that little piece of information in there at the end! Would you like to tell us your salary too or maybe what car you drive?

Just to add, whilst you mentioned that you are freehold, with blocks of flats (as with ours) usually you are leaseholders with a share of the freehold? So with our flat, although we consider ourselves basically freehold, we are technically leaseholders and own a share of the freehold - meaning the advice from the Leasehold Valuation Tribunal still applies.

This has been an odd thread.

A query about a plumbing problem has somehow arrived at a slanging match about levels of education, pretentions as to class and claims of racism.