to ask my mother NOT to take DS to see the sister I've fallen out with?

[mrsSonic]

My sister and I have fallen out. Long story, but I'm sick of her sanctimony and self-involvement and she's recently treated me very cruelly while my depression has been particularly bad.

My mother has offered to look after my toddler DS for the afternoon later this week while I go and "do something nice for myself". It's the first time she's ever offered to do this and it made me think that she actually cares and is starting to understand how she can help me with my depression. Great - I thought.

However, I've just found out that she's planning to take him to see my sister that afternoon and I'm furious. I'm trying to be reasonable and tell myself that it's not DS's fault that his auntie is treating his mum so badly. Thing is, I feel like telling my mum that she can't take take him over so my sister can have a lovely time with him yet still gets to carry on treating me like shit.

My sister has had ample opportunity to mend her relationship with me - I've apologised to her for my part in the row that initially caused the rift but she's chosen not to make up with me. AIBU to tell my mother to find another activity for her and DS that afternoon?

I havent spoken to my sister since January, however, it isnt my kids fault. My kids still go and spend the night, or time with her and my niece. My youngest is sleeping there tomorrow night. I dont like it, but my kids love their auntie and cousin

Also, I can't believe this word hasn't been used yet, your mum is being controlling.

Honestly, she is.

My SM's the same. Very controlling.

Actually, fair point Cupcakes. I guess I was thinking more of it being a regular thing, whereby I could imagine the mum saying to herself "Well, buggery, if I don't just go to see D like I normally do, it'll look like I'm taking OP's side". I think the mum in this case is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

But it's not acceptable for anyone to scream at you in the street OP, so I can understand why you don't want to have contact. It's just that the sensible thing to do would be to try and manage this so that you can keep your distance from your sister without wreaking havoc through the generations if you can at all. IM(definitelyhumble)O.

I think YABU

If I didn't want a relationship with my sister or my brother, I'd still want a relationship with my nieces and nephews.

As a child, my parents have fallen out with their siblings but thankfully they never stopped us having a relationship with our Aunts and Uncles.

I think I might lobby MN to start a topic on Toxic Siblings. I imagine it would be very popular.

Hmm, I thought I might agree as DP and his brother are in a similar situation, but I think maybe YABU if it's over an argument that could be sorted in the near future, and especially if he has been allowed to see her before and has a bond with her.

DP and his brother have never got along, and he and his horrid girlfriend tried to make life as hard for DP as possible, which ended up in him waiting outside our house for us to come home, jumping out of their car and breaking DP's nose. They have never even acknowledged that DD exists, no cards, no nothing, have walked past her twice with no more than a lip-curled glance, but put on an act to their mother that they're desperate to see her and how terrible we are. Hence why when they come visiting MIL always wants to take DD to see them. Not a chance. Violence, and obviously only doing it for show, does not equal getting to see DD.

I understand why it makes you angry though. MIL insisting on taking DD to see them feels like her justifying the violence we've had to take.

However, I've just found out that she's planning to take him to see my sister that afternoon

How did you find out? Did your dm drop herself in it, or have you heard of her plans from another source?

Could it be that your dm was not being duplicitous when she made her offer, and that your sister has susbequently hijacked your mum's plans for the afternoon?

If you're suffering from depression the last thing you need is a fresh load of angst/aggro to brood over although getting angry can temporarily lift th spirits. Can you talk calmly to your dm about the rift, and ask her to encourage your sister to at least try to paper over the cracks in her relationship with you while you are feeling less than your usual positive self?

That said, it can be very difficult to 'help' someone who is suffering from depression and it would be unrealistic for the depressive to expect that, as a matter of course, special allowance should be made for their condition.

Is it possible for you to view this situation as your dm genuinely wanting to give you a break, spend the available time on yourself, and trust that a visit with your ds may go some way to bring about an unforced reconciliation with your sister?

It's times like this that I'm really grateful for MN - I needed kindly advice and a stern talking to and that's just what I've got. Thank you for taking the time to reply, folks :)

I know that making a fuss won't do me or anyone else any good long-term. I'm not going to make any demands of my mother not to see my sister with DS. I know that it's not fair for DS to be kept away from his auntie.

I DO need to stand up to my mum and let her know that I don't appreciate her trying to control the situation and making plans behind my back that she knew I'd be unhappy with.

I know deep down that it's unreasonable of me to expect her to 'take sides' between me and my sister. I understand that she can't. My comment about wanting mum to 'take her to task' on it was borne from my frustration that she won't recognise how horribly my sister's actions have affected me. I had turned a corner before the rift and my recent fall back into depression and anxiety is directly attributable to someone who I thought cared about me telling me what a terrible person I am. :( Not Helpful.

Cupcakes I'd sign up to that topic classic Narc, my sis

YABvU

The argument is between you and your sister. Nothing to do with your ds or your mum. And your ds is not a play-thing 'so your sister can have a lovely time with him'. He is entitled to see his auntie and you shouldn't deny him that.

am assuming that's a x-post, Dancergirl

'I'm not going to make any demands of my mother not to see my sister with DS. I know that it's not fair for DS to be kept away from his auntie.'

Good aunties don't scream at their nephew's mummy in the street.

If you wish to mend your rift like an adult and your sister doesn't, and is being aggressive and hostile, then it genuinely is best that your son is kept away from that until it is resolved. Nothing to do with the guilt-trippy 'You're keeping my nephew away from me!'

She has no 'right' to your son, certainly if she is vocal in thinking that you are such a bad person, she should put her money where her mouth is and stay away from your family, right? No - she seems to want her cake and eat it! As you say, she wants to be able to treat you very badly, but to have good times with your son. Time she realised it doesn't work like that!

It's hard to say without really knowing the personalities involved, but I have a sneaky feeling that if you did put your foot down, then you might find your sister would be quicker to come round and realise that if she isn't prepared to build bridges too, then she loses more than she gains. Your mum isn't helping here - explain to her, she is actually ENABLING the rift to continue. If she were to say to your sister, 'It's rather ridiculous for you to want to play with DN but seem to want to carry on hating his family, isn't it? Bit of a mixed message, eh?' then she would go far further towards helping this situation to be resolved. As it is, sis is getting to stay in a huff but still play with the toys. Is this the way your mum generally relates to your sis? Do you think that's part of the reason why she's refused to make up?

I'd tell your mum this, and gently explain that if she wants to visit your sis, it's best she doesn't babysit. And explain WHY - that until this is resolved, which you want it to be, you don't want bad behaviour (screaming, insulting, refusing to be conciliatory) rewarded. That she's helping the rift continue by pandering to your sister.

I'd sign up as well Cupcakes. BIL = Sociopath.

I hear ya about the 'having her cake and eating it' thing, Shouty. That's just what it is and my mum is enabling that. But as other posters have pointed out, preventing her from seeing her nephew to highlight her bad behaviour is unfair on him.

Much as I'd love to say "you don't deserve to see DS until you can apologise to me" I'm pretty sure it will make me look like a twunt.

"The argument is between you and your sister. Nothing to do with your ds or your mum. And your ds is not a play-thing 'so your sister can have a lovely time with him'. He is entitled to see his auntie and you shouldn't deny him that."

Well, her mum is making it her business by so sneaky and partisan in favour of OP's sister.

And I don't buy the argument that relatives are "entitled" to see the child of a relative. They aren't entitled to anything, your child, your terms, I'm afraid. I have some very toxic relatives who i steer myself clear of, DS also. I'm afraid I'd laugh in the face of anyone who told me that they were entitled to see my child/my child was entitled to see them. I know that there are situations where courts become involved to settle aaccess disputes between parents and grandparents and I can see the sense in that, but I can also see the sense when judges decree that unreasonable grandparents are NOT entitled to see their grandchildren. With siblings/aunts/uncles/cousins, it is very much up to the child's parents, as far as I am concerned.

mrsSonic, what I am unclear on is how you think that her behaviour will affect your child if he sees her (not testing you, I am on your side on this) If you reasonably believe that she will be a toxic influence on your son, trust yourself that you are making the right decision. If you think that you might be doing it out of spite, then might be time to review your position.

I still stand by what I said about your mother trying to control the situation/take parenting choices out of your hands/being duplicitious. I would be very angry about that.

I agree with hamster and cupcakes - nobody on this god given earth has the "right" to build a relationship with my son.

Yes it was MrsS!

I've been that child, caught between a warring mother and sister. It's not pleasant. And I grew up with a whole group of relatives I wasn't allowed to talk to because of my mother's arguments with them.

And the thing with so-called 'toxic' relatives - you've only heard one side of the argument. For all you know, they could be describing YOU as toxic. There is always another side especially in family rifts.

Of course you want to protect your child and yes, relatives are not entitled to see children. But to deny children a relationship with an auntie, uncle, grandparent whatever because of YOUR argument is just cruel imo.

I see what you mean, OP. I think I'd put another slant on it:

'I don't see why you would want to make a point of seeing DS if you want to continue a rift with his family. It seems quite perverse to want to make the point of how you value your role of aunt, whilst at the same time trashing that of sister. Surely if you value your relationship with DS, you would have jumped at the chance to thrash out our differences - for HIS sake as much as ours as sisters. Wanting to continue to be unpleasant to me whilst spending time with him is unfair on him - I don't want him brought near this dispute, until it is sorted out. Your actions smack of using him to make a point. While you seem to want to continue a rift, I find it hard to feel that you have his best interests at heart. If you did, you'd want us to at least talk. So it's best we all stay apart until that time - I've already said that that's what I want us to do.'

Depends what the argument is about, Dancergirl.

If it's a clash of personalities type-thing, then yes I agree, the child should still be able to see their relative. If it is something more damaging, as it is in my case with my sibling (drugs/money/debt/being a massive sociopath) then I will exercise my right to say "no, thanks" when it is suggested that DS might want to spend the afternoon with his uncle.

If your sister's behaviour has caused you to 'fall back into depression' then you clearly hadn't got very far around the 'corner'.

Without knowing the nature of your depression or what treatment you are receiving, it would seem that you need to work on your self-esteem to ensure that unwarranted, unjustified, inconsiderate, or unreasonable, words from anyone or any group of persons, whether related or not, are unable to adversely affect your equilibrium - although, of course, they may cause some momentary unhappiness or discomfort at the time they are uttered.

Is your sister likely to bring the disagreement up when your Mum and DS are there? Is she likely to bad mouth you in front of your DS?

I do actually feel for you (large, complicated family myself). I would often tell my Mum that the time she spent ALONE with my DSs meant so much to me. It largely fell on deaf ears, but that was about as confrontational as I felt I could be.

How much is your Mum involved in all this?

cupcakes - I don't think for a second that my sister is any danger to DS. Even if she did start banging out her toxic nonsense about what an awful human being I am, he's only two so won't be affected by it yet.

Dancer - I completely appreciate your point about there being more than my side to this. I'm hardly perfect and I've handled things badly in the past, but I've apologised, tried to make amends and given her many opportunities to move on and start afresh. It's what I want for the sake of my whole family. She's choosing to continue the rift with me and make me feel like shit, but still wants access to my son.

I've decided that I won't stop their little meet-up happening. I think I can be the bigger person here. I wish I could get across to my mother how disappointed I am at how she's set this up without sounding me like a loon.

Maybe assure your mum that it's nice that she can accommodate the wishes of one daughter, but that it's sad that only one daughter is accorded such consideration.

Yeah, maybe I have my passive-aggressive hat on today.